Why I Hate, Hate, Hate Religion!

[Alla Prima]

It makes no real difference whether it's Hitler, the Mob, Christianity or Islam. What I believe most of us can agree on is that one person or group of persons forcing themselves and their ideology on another individual or group of individuals, warrants the most powerful opposition that can be generated. Call it hate if you like. Without this opposition we are less than nothing.

 

[Storm]

Also, if the Holocaust was strictly about Christian anti-Semitism, why wasn't it limited to the Jews?

 

[dogsgod]

Christians have a long history of anti-semitism. I would never deny it. However, the point here is that atheistic ideology can be just as responsible for atrocities as religious ideology. It was the Nazis, and anti-christian group, who were ultimately responsible for the mass slaughter.

These Nazis are obviously Christians, that's why Hitler used Christian propaganda to rally these people to fight the Jews. The point is not that atheistic ideologies, whatever that means, can be just as responsible as religious ideology. There's no evidence that the Nazis were anti Christian either, that's just rubbish.

The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.
-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] Nazi Conceptions of Christianity

 

[dogsgod]

It makes no real difference whether it's Hitler, the Mob, Christianity or Islam. What I believe most of us can agree on is that one person or group of persons forcing themselves and their ideology on another individual or group of individuals, warrants the most powerful opposition that can be generated. Call it hate if you like. Without this opposition we are less than nothing.

Yes, and there was a powerful opposition. Christians fought against Christians. The second war can be viewed as an inner Christian conflict.

 

[Storm]

If you try really hard.

 

[dogsgod]

If you try really hard.

You're just covering for the anti-semitic Christians.

 

[Storm]

No, I'm not, why would I? Unless you mean to imply that I'm anti-semitic, myself, which would just be more slander. I'm just pointing out that you have an ax to grind.

 

[emiliano]

These Nazis are obviously Christians, that's why Hitler used Christian propaganda to rally these people to fight the Jews. The point is not that atheistic ideologies, whatever that means, can be just as responsible as religious ideology. There's no evidence that the Nazis were anti Christian either, that's just rubbish.

The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.
-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] Nazi Conceptions of Christianity

I always thought that God punished the Jews and that this punishment has been going on for a lot more years than the fifteen hundred that you say.

 

[Oberon]

These Nazis are obviously Christians, that's why Hitler used Christian propaganda to rally these people to fight the Jews. The point is not that atheistic ideologies, whatever that means, can be just as responsible as religious ideology. There's no evidence that the Nazis were anti Christian either, that's just rubbish.

Yes, i'm sure there is no evidence from the various websites you visit. However, from those of us who actually study history from reputable sources, there is plenty. I already gave you both internal documents and Goebbels diary in which Hitler is quoted as being anti-christian. And the policies of the Nazi party against church involvement and churches is well documented. All you have provided is a bunch of propaganda evidence that Hitler tried to gain the support of christians. Great. How about providing some counter-evidence against the sources I provide which not only document Hitler's anti-christian stance through private conversation and internal nazi documents, and the Nazi's policies which show discrimination against the church?

Oh wait, you have none of that. All you have is Hitler's propaganda, contradicted by his actual policies.

 

[dogsgod]

No, I'm not, why would I? Unless you mean to imply that I'm anti-semitic, myself, which would just be more slander. I'm just pointing out that you have an ax to grind.

You deny that Hitler was appealing to the anti-Semitic Christians as if they didn't exist. You seem to be the one with an ax to grind. You oppose the criticism of Christianity, even the Christianity held by Nazis because you can't admit that Christianity can be held responsible for the holocaust. You're just covering for the dark side of Christianity by denying it's existence.

 

[dogsgod]

I always thought that God punished the Jews and that this punishment has been going on for a lot more years than the fifteen hundred that you say.

Is this the God you worship?

 

[Storm]

You deny that Hitler was appealing to the anti-Semitic Christians as if they didn't exist.

No, I don't.

You oppose the criticism of Christianity,

No, I don't. ETA: In fact, I frequently engage in it. But there's a difference between criticism and bashing.

even the Christianity held by Nazis because

No, I don't. I challenge the assertion that the Nazi party was based on Christianity in the first place.

you can't admit that Christianity can be held responsible for the holocaust.

Because it can't. Worldviews are ideas. Ideas don't kill people, people do.

You're just covering for the dark side of Christianity by denying it's existence.

Wrong again.

 

[dogsgod]

Yes, i'm sure there is no evidence from the various websites you visit. However, from those of us who actually study history from reputable sources, there is plenty. I already gave you both internal documents and Goebbels diary in which Hitler is quoted as being anti-christian. And the policies of the Nazi party against church involvement and churches is well documented. All you have provided is a bunch of propaganda evidence that Hitler tried to gain the support of christians. Great. How about providing some counter-evidence against the sources I provide which not only document Hitler's anti-christian stance through private conversation and internal nazi documents, and the Nazi's policies which show discrimination against the church?

Oh wait, you have none of that. All you have is Hitler's propaganda, contradicted by his actual policies.

It would be impossible for the Nazis to rally around and support Hitler if they were anti-Christian. Hitler constantly expressed his Christian views in all of his speeches and appealed to the anti-Semitism held by Christians. Stop being such a fool about the rubbish circulating on websites. Why am I not surprised you buy into that Hitler's Table Talk crap that you consider to be a reputable source? Have you ever read a critique of that book?

 

[dogsgod]

No, I don't.

No, I don't. ETA: In fact, I frequently engage in it. But there's a difference between criticism and bashing.

No, I don't. I challenge the assertion that the Nazi party was based on Christianity in the first place.

Because it can't. Worldviews are ideas. Ideas don't kill people, people do.

Wrong again.

You have never challenged the assertion that the Nazi party was based on Christianity, you have simply denied it.

 

[Storm]

You have never challenged the assertion that the Nazi party was based on Christianity, you have simply denied it.

I see no need to re-invent the wheel. Oberon has provided you with evidence, which you cannot rebut.

Also, I have indeed challenged the assertion, with simple logic, which you are also unable to rebut.

Finally, your tactic of ignoring all the inconvenient points in virtually every post (again, because you cannot rebut) fools no one.

 

[Oberon]

even the Christianity held by Nazis

If the Nazi's were christian, why were all the top leaders (like Goebbels or Bormann) radical atheists?

Why is it that "they Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughtest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in (from The Third Reich in Power by Professor of Modern History at the University of Cambridge Richard Evans, p. 237). Why were clergy ordered not to preach, hundreds were imprisoned and murdered, were put under Gestapo surveillance, etc? (ibid).

Again, all you have is Hitler's statements of propaganda. Why should we believe those lies any more than any number of other public statements he made which he then contradicted by his actions? Where is the evidence that the Nazi's supported the churches and encouraged christianity to flourish in Nazi germany? You can't prove that by providing quotes of propaganda. You have to show it by looking at their policies, which contradict this view.

Once again, your ill-informed bias gets in the way of your actually knowing what you are talking about.

 

[emiliano]

Is this the God you worship?

This is the God of the Torah, it is a God of justice and God that correct His children and remember that God will restore his chosen, the time for that. Only God knows but I believe in his promises, they will learn from His chastisement.

 

[Alla Prima]

Yes, and there was a powerful opposition. Christians fought against Christians. The second war can be viewed as an inner Christian conflict.

I don't see that. The Second WW was a war against aggression.

 

[Oberon]

The basic point is that athiestic ideologies have only in the last century been responsible for almost as many deaths (perhaps more) than religion in the last thousand plus years.

Moa, Statlin, Hitlre, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il, and a number of other communist or otherwise atheistic regimes have collectively murdered and exterminated hundreds of millions of people.

 

[dogsgod]

If the Nazi's were christian, why were all the top leaders (like Goebbels or Bormann) radical atheists?

Why is it that "they Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughtest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in (from The Third Reich in Power by Professor of Modern History at the University of Cambridge Richard Evans, p. 237). Why were clergy ordered not to preach, hundreds were imprisoned and murdered, were put under Gestapo surveillance, etc? (ibid).

Again, all you have is Hitler's statements of propaganda. Why should we believe those lies any more than any number of other public statements he made which he then contradicted by his actions? Where is the evidence that the Nazi's supported the churches and encouraged christianity to flourish in Nazi germany? You can't prove that by providing quotes of propaganda. You have to show it by looking at their policies, which contradict this view.

Once again, your ill-informed bias gets in the way of your actually knowing what you are talking about.

You are so incredibly one dimensional. The churches were divided so of course their strongest opposition would come from churches. Not all Christians were anti-Semitic, but enough were in order to cause the holocaust to happen. You're just covering for the anti-Semitic Christians that were Nazis by denying their existence as Christians.