Why I Hate, Hate, Hate Religion!

[Wannabe Yogi]

I do understand what you are saying, wannabe yogi, and I don't disagree with it. What I am trying to point out that hating Jews is against what Jesus Himself taught. I guess it is a good thing that Jesus and His earliest followers were not European.

What I am saying is that Christianity has been steeped in Anti-Semitism. It needs to be looked at and not denied so it will never happen again. Even today In church's all over America people preach that Jews are going to hell. This type of thinking only leads to more of the same old hate.

We Hindu’s have the same problem with the caste system. We need to acknowledge it and deal with it, looking at the evil right in the eye. This way we can cut out the cancer just like a surgeon, not shrinking from its sight.

 

[dogsgod]

What I am saying is that Christianity has been steeped in Anti-Semitism. It needs to be looked at and not denied so it will never happen again. Even today In church's all over America people preach that Jews are going to hell. This type of thinking only leads to more of the same old hate.

We Hindu’s have the same problem with the caste system. We need to acknowledge it and deal with it, looking at the evil right in the eye. This way we can cut out the cancer just like a surgeon, not shrinking from its sight.

On this very thread Christian antisemitism has been thoroughly denied and the suggestion of it has resulted in accusations of atheistic ant-religious ideology, how's that for a mouthful. Even the mention of Christians fighting against antisemitic Christians was denied in favor of a Christian unison opposing Nazis atheists. You can't even suggest that any Christians were antisemitic, not even Hitler in spite of his obsession with Christianity. According to some on this very thread Hitler was using Christian rhetoric in order to appeal to Nazi atheists. Go figure, and then they deny they are providing cover for antisemitic Christians. Don't criticize Christianity on this thread or next thing you know you'll be answering for Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot as all criticism of Christianity is sure to eventually lead to Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, it never fails.

 

[Storm]

Nobody has denied the Christian history of anti-semitism.

 

[Azakel]

Nobody has denied the Christian history of anti-semitism.

It's hopeless Sister Storm, some people are just blinded by there own ignorance and hate that they don't see what others are saying.

 

[Storm]

It's for the lurkers.

 

[Azakel]

It's for the lurkers.

I see ^_^

 

[J Bryson]

Okay.

Did Christian anti-Semites exist in Germany during WWII? Yes, absolutely, and in many other places as well.

Did Hitler use Christian symbols and references in his rhetoric in order to appeal to his Christian followers? Yes.

Do Hitler's private comments and letters, and his appointment of atheists to top positions in the party seem to indicate that Hitler's Christianity was at best suspect, and most probably totally nonexistent? Yes.

HOWEVER: Was it incumbent upon the Christians in Germany to get off of their collective duffs and realize that there was nothing in the Bible to suggest that Hitler's anti-Semitic policies were Christian in nature? That they were, in fact, the opposite? I believe so.

The Christian churches in Germany share an enormous amount of the blame for what happened. They were so concerned with going along that they forgot their essential mission, all of which can be found in the Sermon on the Mount.

Fortunately, a few Christians saw their duty and followed it no matter the price.

 

[ChristineES]

One can talk and talk until blue and say things and the person will still not hear what is being said or just glean what they wish to hear.
I also didn't read in any post that there was never any antisemitism in Christian Churches. There is also racism among Christians- And I just pointed out it isn't supposed to be that way and that not all Christians are anti semitic. We also know that just because someone says that he or she is a Christian, doesn't mean that they truly follow Jesus' commands. Just as if I say I am a man, I still will not be one, just because I say so.

 

[Oberon]

On this very thread Christian antisemitism has been thoroughly denied

I wish I could say that this is the most foolish statement you have ever made. It is completely wrong and absolutely ridiculous, and yet you have topped it before. Numerous people, including myself, have confirmed that Christians have a long history of anti-semitism.

However, this does not mean that the Nazis, who also persecuted the christian churches, were christian. And of course you completely ignored all of the evidence of Nazi persecution of the church, internal anti-semitic nazi documents, and recordings of private remarks of hitler showing his anti-christian attitude.
You have also failed to explain how the atheistic ideologies of Mao and Stalin were not atheistic, when religious persecution and atheism were central to their regimes and ideologies.

and the suggestion of it has resulted in accusations of atheistic ant-religious ideology

Wrong. Are you seriously suggesting that Stalin or Mao were not atheistic or anti-religious, or that they didn't persecute religious expression, including the christian church? You can't actually be that ignorant of history. Oh wait... all of your posts I have ever read suggest that you are.

Even the mention of Christians fighting against antisemitic Christians was denied in favor of a Christian unison opposing Nazis atheists.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong. The fact that the Nazis were atheists and persecuted the church doesn't mean that christianity doesn't have a long history of anti-semitisim.

You can't even suggest that any Christians were antisemitic, not even Hitler in spite of his obsession with Christianity.

You can't even explain why the churches were persecuted under his regime, why top Nazi officials were radical atheists, why Goebbels private diary records Hitler making anti-christian statements, or why we should trust his propaganda over his policies.

According to some on this very thread Hitler was using Christian rhetoric in order to appeal to Nazi atheists

You are so completely out of touch with what has been said it is actually scary. You do realize that not all of germany were actually party members, right? You had to actually be accepted into the party. Hitler appealed to german Christians in order to when their support (at least initially), but the Nazi party and its leader, after gaining power, increasingly persecuted christian churches, clergy, etc.

Don't criticize Christianity on this thread or next thing you know you'll be answering for Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot as all criticism of Christianity is sure to eventually lead to Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, it never fails.

Rather, don't act like religion is the only thing that can be responsible for atrocities, when atheistic regimes touting atheistic ideologies can commit mass murders undreamt of by religious fanatics (without even going into various other motives for atrocities throughout history).

 

[emiliano]

What I am saying is that Christianity has been steeped in Anti-Semitism. It needs to be looked at and not denied so it will never happen again. Even today In church's all over America people preach that Jews are going to hell. This type of thinking only leads to more of the same old hate.

We Hindu’s have the same problem with the caste system. We need to acknowledge it and deal with it, looking at the evil right in the eye. This way we can cut out the cancer just like a surgeon, not shrinking from its sight.

Not to mention your problems with Islam

 

[emiliano]

The problem that I see in this discussion is that the members are painting Nazism as a Christian kind of religion, and it is not, also Nazism is presented as a German creation and is not, Hitler was charismatic leader that used several means such philosophies, religion, political and economic issues, science and off course the best target for unifying hatred were the Jews he understood that people love to hate the Jews and it was easy for the Nazis to convince the masses that the extermination of them was the final solution, this was the same strategy used by the earlier Communist, they did it through philosophy, political and economical issues they managed to unite the masses hatred as religions have financial resources and if they were to be eliminate all problem would be solved, the commies would distribute these resources equally and everybody will be better off. This is the main reason why religion is hated and unite the masses against it. Unfortunately hatred is a powerful tool for unification and there is no shortage of charismatic leader willing to use it.

 

[Oberon]

also Nazism is presented as a German creation and is not, Hitler was charismatic leader that used several means such philosophies, religion, political and economic issues, science

It is true that National Socialism used non-German ideologies, going back to the French Revolution. Like Communism and similar systems, Nazi german was a form of political collectivism where the state was all. And certainly the idea of Eugenics was not unique to Germany.

However, it was also a very German creation, using German philosophies (paritcularly Nietzsche) german neo-pagan symbolism (taken from Wagner, among others), etc. Although comparisons between Stalin's russia, Mussolini's italy, and Hitler's germany reveal great similarity in the political systems, what makes each unique is the way a particular type of collectivism was adapted for each culture.

 

[dogsgod]

The German Christian Movement


The German Christians


Ideology

The German Christians were, for the most part, a "group of fanatically Nazi Protestants." They began as an interest group and eventually came to represent one of the schismatic factions of German Protestanism.

The German Christians were supportive of the Nazihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism ideas about race. They issued public statements that Christians in Germany with Jewish ancestors "remain Christians in a New Testament sense, but are not German Christians." Also they supported the call from the Nazi party platform for a positive Christianity that does not stress human sinfulness. Some went so far as to call for removal of the "Jewish" Old Testament from the Biblehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible. Their symbol was a traditional Christian cross with a swastika in the middle and the group's German initials "D" and "C". It was claimed and remembered, as a "fact", that the Jews had killed Christ, thus appealing to and actively encouraging existing anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians in Germany. wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christian#cite_note-Barnes-2

 

[Oberon]

The German Christian Movement

You do know that the german christain movement does not mean "german christians" but rather refers to a smaller schism within german protestantism?

Also, the fact that these anti-semitic christians supported Nazi ideologies did not mean they were allowed or even became a part of the Nazi party, which after gaining power oppressed all christian churches and clergy.

Once again, the issue is not whether christianity has a history of anti-semiticism (it does) or that some german christians (or even most)
supported Hitler (at least initially). It is whether the Nazi party itself was a christian or atheist ideology, and whether atheist ideologies can be just as or even more destructive, murderous, and horrific as religious ones.
I know you have a severe allergy to reading scholarship, or even books usually, so rather than reiterate by quoting the works of scholarship I already have quoted, why don't we use your source wikipedia:

"Nazi party leaders viewed Christianity and National Socialism as competing world views (even though some Christians did not see a conflict) and Hitler planned to eliminate the Christian churches after securing control of his European empire. The churches were permitted some self governing and allowed to remain because Hitler did not want to risk strong opposition until other more pressing issues were dealt with.[53]
From the mid 1930's, anti-Christian elements within the Nazi party became more prominent - they were restrained by Hitler who thought religion would die by its self as science advanced. Nevertheless the Party began to suppress religious teaching, closed religious youth movements and excluded religious instruction from the Hitler Youth. The public collection of money for religious charities was forbidden. In 1937 all confessing church seminaries and teaching was banned. Dissident Protestants were forbidden to attend universities and state-sponsored denominational and private religious schools were closed. During Hitlers dictatorship, more than 6,000 clergymen, on the charge of treasonable activity, were imprisoned or executed. [46] The same measures were taken in the occupied territories, in French Lorraine, the Nazis forbid religious youth movements, parish meetings, scout meetings, and church assets were taken. Church schools were closed and teachers in religious orders were dismissed. The episcopal seminary was closed and the SA and SS desecrated churches, religious statutes and pictures; 300 clergy were expelled from the Lorraine region, monks and nuns were deported or forced to renounce their vows.[54]" [emphases added]

 

[dogsgod]

[SIZE=-1]

Hitler's Brown Army attending and leaving church services. These photos were published by Nazis during Hitler's reign.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2](Source: Das Braune Heer: mit einem geleitwort von Adolf Hitler [Translation: The Brown Army: with a foreword by Adolf Hitler], Photos by Heinrich Hoffmann)[/SIZE]​

 

[dogsgod]

Other members of the Hitler government, including Rosenberg, during the war formulated a thirty-point program for the "National Reich Church" which included:

• The National Reich Church claims exclusive right and control over all Churches.
• The National Church is determined to exterminate foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.
• The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
• The National Church will clear away from its altars all Crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of Saints.
• On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf and to the left of the altar a sword.[52]

Nazi party leaders viewed Christianity and National Socialism as competing world views (even though some Christians did not see a conflict) and Hitler planned to eliminate the Christian churches after securing control of his European empire. The churches were permitted some self governing and allowed to remain because Hitler did not want to risk strong opposition until other more pressing issues were dealt with.[53] wiki


OK, some had planned to replace Christian churches with a "National Reich Church."



So where does atheism enter into all of this? It doesn't.

 

[Oberon]

Other members of the Hitler government, including Rosenberg, during the war formulated a thirty-point program for the "National Reich Church" which included:

• The National Reich Church claims exclusive right and control over all Churches.
• The National Church is determined to exterminate foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.
• The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
• The National Church will clear away from its altars all Crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of Saints.
• On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf and to the left of the altar a sword.[52]

Nazi party leaders viewed Christianity and National Socialism as competing world views (even though some Christians did not see a conflict) and Hitler planned to eliminate the Christian churches after securing control of his European empire. The churches were permitted some self governing and allowed to remain because Hitler did not want to risk strong opposition until other more pressing issues were dealt with.[53] wiki


OK, some had planned to replace Christian churches with a "National Reich Church."



So where does atheism enter into all of this? It doesn't.

Because the National Riech Church was not a Christian, or even a religious organization, nor were the Nazis. They were replacing organized religion with organized political atheistic ideology. Their "church" had Hitler at its head, in place of Christ, and Mein Kamp instead of a bible.

You seem to have difficulty understanding your own sources.

• The National Reich Church claims exclusive right and control over all Churches.
• The National Church is determined to exterminate foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.
• The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
• The National Church will clear away from its altars all Crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of Saints.
• On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf and to the left of the altar a sword.[52]

This is not a religious institution just because they call it a church (no bibles except Hitler's Mein Kamp, no crucifixes, no Christ but Hitler, etc). Rather, it is replacing the religious structure of germany with Nazi atheist ideology.

 

[dogsgod]

Because the National Riech Church was not a Christian, or even a religious organization, nor were the Nazis. They were replacing organized religion with organized political atheistic ideology. Their "church" had Hitler at its head, in place of Christ, and Mein Kamp instead of a bible.

If you read Mein Kampt you'd realize the absurdity of your hideous notions of atheistic ideology, whatever that is. He idolizes the Christian Social Party while denouncing atheistic Jewish parties. Get a grip.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"This is not a religious institution just because they call it a church (no bibles except Hitler's Mein Kamp, no crucifixes, no Christ but Hitler, etc). "

So it is not possible to have a religious institution w/o a bible and/or a crucifix. Is that your position?

 

[Oberon]

"This is not a religious institution just because they call it a church (no bibles except Hitler's Mein Kamp, no crucifixes, no Christ but Hitler, etc). "

So it is not possible to have a religious institution w/o a bible and/or a crucifix. Is that your position?

Not at all. However, a church that replaces all religious iconography with political propaganda and political iconography, and all religious ideology with political ideology, is not a religious institution, but a political one.