Why I Hate, Hate, Hate Religion!

[Storm]

Probably true. However, just because people were killed by non-atheists, doesn't mean they were killed over religion. The majority of wars were fought for power/politics, not religion

I agree with this, but it's not what RomCat said. S/he said "killed by atheists."

Rather, we can't know for certain whether or not he was atheist.

How is this different from what I said?

He certainly wasn't christian,

How do you know?

he promoted a form of germanic paganism for propaganda purposes,

I pointed this out earlier.

and many of his statements contradict each other.

Agreed.

When you look at the Nazi regime, however, there is a clear anti-religious stance. This is true for most similar regimes (russia, china, etc) where the state usurps the role of church, and political ideology the role of religious ideology.

I am unaware of this, but it's not an area I've given much study.

Religion isn't the problem (and often is the solution, if adherents would only follow what their religion dictates). People are.

I don't see why you feel the need to tell me what I've been saying all along.

 

[ChristineES]

To summarize what people are saying- Neither theists nor atheists have the hold on mass murder and atrocities. Whether Hitler was a Christian or not Christian is not an issue. And if you want to pin the blame on something- put it on fear, ignorance, and hate.

 

[Storm]

To summarize what people are saying- Neither theists nor atheists have the hold on mass murder and atrocities. Whether Hitler was a Christian or not Christian is not an issue. And if you want to pin the blame on something- put it on fear, ignorance, and hate.

QFT, frubals.

ETA: The system will not let me frubal you. Curses!

 

[logician]

To summarize what people are saying- Neither theists nor atheists have the hold on mass murder and atrocities. Whether Hitler was a Christian or not Christian is not an issue. And if you want to pin the blame on something- put it on fear, ignorance, and hate.

ANd the corollary is that neither religion nor atheism has a corner on goodness.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

To summarize what people are saying- Neither theists nor atheists have the hold on mass murder and atrocities. Whether Hitler was a Christian or not Christian is not an issue. And if you want to pin the blame on something- put it on fear, ignorance, and hate.

As I have said on a different thread. In the 20th century it has been nationalism that has been the conceptual frame work that has stacked up the most bodes. It is the only common denominator that runs through all the large Genocide's of the last 150 years.

 

[ChristineES]

ANd the corollary is that neither religion nor atheism has a corner on goodness.

That, too.

 

[J Bryson]

QFT, frubals.

ETA: The system will not let me frubal you. Curses!

No worries, I got it covered.

 

[Azakel]

Don't forget the millions of Chinese killed in WW2 by the Shintoists of Japan, in some ways their atrocities were worse than those committed by the Germans.

Once again I'll tell you this, Just because Shinto is the religion of Japan does not mean that's why they kill the Chinese doing WW2. Your ignorance in this is tiring.

To add still, saying that a Japanese person kills a Chinese person and blaming it on Shinto would then be like now saying that when an American kills someone it a Christian and blame Christianity.

 

[logician]

Once again I'll tell you this, Just because Shinto is the religion of Japan does not mean that's why they kill the Chinese doing WW2. Your ignorance in this is tiring.

To add still, saying that a Japanese person kills a Chinese person and blaming it on Shinto would then be like now saying that when an American kills someone it a Christian and blame Christianity.

You obviously haven't read the history books about this one, it was very much about religion.

 

[Azakel]

You obviously haven't read the history books about this one, it was very much about religion.

Link me to something then. Some people don't seem to understand Shinto anyway.

 

[Oberon]

I agree with this, but it's not what RomCat said. S/he said "killed by atheists."

I know.

How is this different from what I said?

You said "Just as it cannot be reliably claimed that Hitler was Christian, nor can it be said he was atheist." This statement contrasts the indefinite reliability of the claim that Hitler was Christian, with the certainty that he was atheist (it can't be said that he was atheist). It CAN be said that he was atheist, and I personally think that it was likely. However, it can't be said with certainty.

How do you know?

Because of the way the Nazi regime treated both christianity and the church. "Church goers" were excluded from the party. Church attendence and service was discouraged. If the leader of the Party was christian, certainly that attitude of the party would have differed. We may not be able to trust Hitler's statements (which more often than not were anti-christian, but were occasionally pro-christian) but we can certainly trust that his policies represented his views.

I don't see why you feel the need to tell me what I've been saying all along.

That comment was directed to the thread in general, not you in particular.

 

[dogsgod]

If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the "Old Guard" at Munich on 24 Feb. 1939





This Winter Help Work is also in the deepest sense a Christian work. When I see, as I so often do, poorly clad girls collecting with such infinite patience in order to care for those who are suffering from the cold while they themselves are shivering with cold, then I have the feeling that they are all apostles of a Christianity-- and in truth of a Christianity which can say with greater right than any other: This is the Christianity of an honest confession, for behind it stand not words but deeds. -Adolf Hitler, speaking of the Winter Help Campaign on 5 Oct. 1937



No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.... National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934

 

[dogsgod]

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith. from our point of view as representatives of the state, we need believing people. A dark cloud threatens from Poland. We have need of soldiers, believing solders. Believing solders are the most valuable ones. They give their all. Therefore we will maintain the confessional schools in order to train believing people through the schools, but this depends upon having truly believing teachers, not by chance Marxists who do not stand fully by their religious faith, as teachers.
-Hitler, [quoted from Helmreich, p.241]


Does Hitler sound like an atheist to you?

 

[ChristineES]

Didn't Hitler want to take Bibles out of Churches to put in Mein Kampf in it's place? So if Hitler did have a faith, maybe it was in himself. Truly doesn't matter anyway.

 

[Smoke]

To summarize what people are saying- Neither theists nor atheists have the hold on mass murder and atrocities. Whether Hitler was a Christian or not Christian is not an issue. And if you want to pin the blame on something- put it on fear, ignorance, and hate.

Almost all mass murders and atrocities can be chalked up to three motives:

1) Religion
2) Nationalism/Ethnic strife
3) Political ideology

Our people are going to establish the kingdom of God / worker's paradise, reclaim our ancestral homeland, and triumph over our enemies.

Some religions and ideologies feed this kind of delusion much more readily than others.

 

[Enoch07]

Almost all mass murders and atrocities can be chalked up to three motives:

1) Religion
2) Nationalism/Ethnic strife
3) Political ideology

Our people are going to establish the kingdom of God / worker's paradise, reclaim our ancestral homeland, and triumph over our enemies.

Some religions and ideologies feed this kind of delusion much more readily than others.

Please. The reason Hitler did the things he did was his own. He craved domination, wealth and power. Just like any other tyrant, they do it to stroke their own egos to make themselves feel more important than they are, plain and simple. The holocaust was a horrible atrocity based on Hitlers own racist views.

 

[Smoke]

Please. The reason Hitler did the things he did was his own. He craved domination, wealth and power. Just like any other tyrant, they do it to stroke their own egos to make themselves feel more important than they are, plain and simple. The holocaust was a horrible atrocity based on Hitlers own racist views.

Yup. He did it all single-handed. The millions of Christians who carried out his orders were completely blameless, and neither Catholicism nor Lutheranism had contributed anything to the climate of anti-Semitism.

 

[dogsgod]

Please. The reason Hitler did the things he did was his own. He craved domination, wealth and power. Just like any other tyrant, they do it to stroke their own egos to make themselves feel more important than they are, plain and simple. The holocaust was a horrible atrocity based on Hitlers own racist views.

The holocaust was a horrible atrocity based on Hitlers own religious views.

 

[dogsgod]

Yup. He did it all single-handed. The millions of Christians who carried out his orders were completely blameless, and neither Catholicism nor Lutheranism had contributed anything to the climate of anti-Semitism.

True.

 

[dogsgod]

True with sarcasm included.