Why I left Islâm

[Kodanshi]

Thanks You too!

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Thank you! Very kind of you to say so. I don’t think we need absolute 100% certainty about anything to know enough to dismiss something, especially when people have not unequivocally proved the existence of god and we’ve had… what? 5000 years to do so? I don’t consider myself hasty in my dismissal of god, I simply can’t accept that viewpoint now. However, I do not follow such a view with religious fervour. If someone can categorically prove god’s existence to me then of course I would have to accept that.

Which also brings to mind the question: so what? If we accept religions as human constructs in the worship of god, and god exists, how does that change my life? I can simply intellectually acknowledge its existence, and then go on living my life the way I have done, trying to live a morally sound and worthwhile life. What about god demands that we worship it? Or does god have a divine–sized ego that needs boosting?

Great. So you have an open minded rejection of the God concepts you have encountered. That's very reasonable. Just realize that not all people have a view of God that requires you to first throw out reason. And as far as the worship of God, I don't think it's because he needs it. For me, it's a natural outgrowth of knowing who he is. He doesn't selfishly demand obedience and worship from all people like a spoiled monarch. Think about it. If he were that type of being, he would have revealed himself and forced us into slavery a long time a go. Everything God does with regards to us is in our own self interest. Not his.

 

[YmirGF]

Just realize that not all people have a view of God that requires you to first throw out reason.

Really? Name one.

And as far as the worship of God, I don't think it's because he needs it. For me, it's a natural outgrowth of knowing who he is.

Then try thinking about how god would react to all the endless platitudes directed at him. After awhile don't you think it would wear a little thin?

He doesn't selfishly demand obedience and worship from all people like a spoiled monarch. Think about it.

Given that god created you as a vibrant singular being with dreams and aspiration to think for yourself don't you think it is a bit strange to throw all of that gift away in order to do what you think that creator wants you to do? Is this supposed to be reasonable?

If he were that type of being, he would have revealed himself and forced us into slavery a long time a go.

Not necessarily. One could argue that religious dogma is precisely the mechanism for enforcing such slavery.

Everything God does with regards to us is in our own self interest. Not his.

But how would you know? You cannot prove the existence of god to begin with, let alone support such a remarkable claim.

 

[Gharib]

I could, I suppose, but I’ve debated this time and again with people from both muslim and non–Islâmic backgrounds. Believers will see what they want to see.

i understand, but i haven't seen anything yet. how do you know that i will do the same as them?

Oh please, the Qur’ân describes mountains as anchoring the earth, fixing it so it won’t shake. Except mountains themselves prove in the inherent instability of the crust of the planet we live on! The Qur’ân’s embryonic ‘knowledge’ falls woefully short of fact, and some of it comes copied from incorrect notions taught by Greek medicine.

you forgot to mentione the clouds. as for the mountains, how many are there in mecca, i can't think of any of them to be able to say that this part is a lie in the quran, because how would Muhammed (saws) have know about them. are there any in mecca, not the sand mountains but actuall hard earth mountain?

Something like your first paragraph. However, though I studied Geography at A–Level I did it because I could not settle on a choice of which final subject to pick. I don’t know the intricately detailed ins and outs of our planet’s weather system, but I know enough to say that some mysterious supernatural entity doesn’t cause it.

so if rain comes down in that way, where is it then? look at what global warming is doing, heating up the earth, shoulden't we be flooded by rain by now? the seas are becoming warmer, meaning they water can evaporise more quicker, which will turn into clouds more often, which means there would be more rain more often. but i haven's seen any, have you? and not in just some parts or countries but in all of the ones who touch the see or have lakes inland.

Exactly. The Qur’ân repeatedly states that allah itself seals people’s hearts and actively leads them astray from the correct path. Accordingly, it cannot hold me responsible for my beliefs that stem from its own meddling actions.

well you know Allah has written my future in the book of Lewi Mahfudh, and in it, he has written that i will get married one day, now just because it is written that i will get married it doesn't mean that i don't have to look for a bride, it won't come to me by herself.
so you are saying that god has written that you will become a non muslim, he too has written it that i would become one if i never respected Allah, if i never defended him (although he needs no defending, he is the wise and all powerfull), if i never respected Muhammed (saws) if i never mentioned Allah and praised if and i i live my life like the westerners, that will most deffinately make me a non muslim, Allah has written that i will become a non muslim if i try to immitate the non muslims. see there is a big thing that people miss whet it is said that Allah has written my future for me.

So I can’t say what I feel has gone wrong with the religion in which I used to believe?

yes you can, thats what you are doing, but if you become my enemy i will become yours, see how this works.

I posted on that forum for many years as a muslim, I hadn’t just joined up to announce my apostasy, you know!

yes i understand, thats why you got the different reactions from them.

This sort of attitude also seems to typify muslim responses to apostasy. They seem to fall under the delusion that people turn away from religion so that they can indulge in sin, or some other such ridiculous notion.

well if you are not worshiping Allah and don't acknowledge that he is the only true god, i'm affraid you are indulging in sin, commiting sin doesn't mean that you hae to go to a night club or drink alcohol, they are the big sins, but it is the little sins that get you there, meaning the little sins are worse than the big ones.

Yes, I can do all that, but I could do all that when I followed Islâm too. The only reason I don’t do stupid stuff like that comes from the fact that I don’t act like that. Why would I swear instead of talking? I do recite some of the shahadah, by the way, as you can see from my signature!

does you signature say "lilah" cos i can read in arabic a little, but can't without the vowels, since i don't know the languag or aren't an arab.

See? You’ve just proved my point. You think I can now cavort around shagging everything that moves, eating pig and drinking booze while murdering people and going to strip clubs. Stupid…

thats not what i'm saying, my statemnt above explains this.

What the hell does all this even mean?!

oh, don't worry i was trying to make some fun, of the fact that you must know believe in evolution, since you do not believe that a god created everything.

 

[McBell]

i understand, but i haven't seen anything yet. how do you know that i will do the same as them?

you forgot to mentione the clouds. as for the mountains, how many are there in mecca, i can't think of any of them to be able to say that this part is a lie in the quran, because how would Muhammed (saws) have know about them. are there any in mecca, not the sand mountains but actuall hard earth mountain?

so if rain comes down in that way, where is it then? look at what global warming is doing, heating up the earth, shoulden't we be flooded by rain by now? the seas are becoming warmer, meaning they water can evaporise more quicker, which will turn into clouds more often, which means there would be more rain more often. but i haven's seen any, have you? and not in just some parts or countries but in all of the ones who touch the see or have lakes inland.

well you know Allah has written my future in the book of Lewi Mahfudh, and in it, he has written that i will get married one day, now just because it is written that i will get married it doesn't mean that i don't have to look for a bride, it won't come to me by herself.
so you are saying that god has written that you will become a non muslim, he too has written it that i would become one if i never respected Allah, if i never defended him (although he needs no defending, he is the wise and all powerfull), if i never respected Muhammed (saws) if i never mentioned Allah and praised if and i i live my life like the westerners, that will most deffinately make me a non muslim, Allah has written that i will become a non muslim if i try to immitate the non muslims. see there is a big thing that people miss whet it is said that Allah has written my future for me.

yes you can, thats what you are doing, but if you become my enemy i will become yours, see how this works.

yes i understand, thats why you got the different reactions from them.

well if you are not worshiping Allah and don't acknowledge that he is the only true god, i'm affraid you are indulging in sin, commiting sin doesn't mean that you hae to go to a night club or drink alcohol, they are the big sins, but it is the little sins that get you there, meaning the little sins are worse than the big ones.

does you signature say "lilah" cos i can read in arabic a little, but can't without the vowels, since i don't know the languag or aren't an arab.

thats not what i'm saying, my statemnt above explains this.

oh, don't worry i was trying to make some fun, of the fact that you must know believe in evolution, since you do not believe that a god created everything.

Wow.
Assume much?

 

[Gharib]

Wow.
Assume much?

whats this about?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Really? Name one.

Mine!

Then try thinking about how god would react to all the endless platitudes directed at him. After awhile don't you think it would wear a little thin?

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this point. Maybe try spelling it out more obviously for me.

Given that god created you as a vibrant singular being with dreams and aspiration to think for yourself don't you think it is a bit strange to throw all of that gift away in order to do what you think that creator wants you to do? Is this supposed to be reasonable?

Okay, given that God created me as a vibrant singular being with dreams and aspiration to think for myself, yes, that would be counterintuitive for God to go and force us to throw all of that out the window. Obviously we are seeing this different because I don't know why I would have to do that. I say, follow your dreams! Realize your aspirations! I don't see why God would have a problem with that.

Not necessarily. One could argue that religious dogma is precisely the mechanism for enforcing such slavery.

Good point, I guess that makes sense. But wouldn't he want to enslave all of you atheists as well? And what of all the differing God concepts? Wouldn't he want them all worshiping the same person, himself? Or does any supernatural belief make him happy? I have to say, such a being seems very unlikely to exist in my opinion. I have no evidence that he exists, and no personal experience to speak to his existence.

But how would you know? You cannot prove the existence of god to begin with, let alone support such a remarkable claim.

Well, you're right. At this exact moment, I cannot say or do anything that would convince you that God exists. I don't claim to be able to. I just claim that he does. Believe me if you want to. (Well, it's not really that simple is it, you want to believe so poof: there you are ) What I am saying, is that you do not have to throw out reason to believe in God. It doesn't prove his existence though.

 

[Gharib]

in relation to davys' post

gods existence if proven by his power

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

in relation to davys' post

gods existence if proven by his power

Not agreeing, or disagreeing. But I would be interested to hear you elaborate a little.

 

[Gharib]

Not agreeing, or disagreeing. But I would be interested to hear you elaborate a little.

ok heres an example although there are many better ones, but i just like to use this;

you and i are both looking at a wall, you on one side, me on the other, the wall is very tall nd very long. you do not know that i am on the other side, but i do. i throw a coin at you or anything for that matter and after you see that the coin came from the other side of the wall, you do know that someone on the other side exists, why? because they were able to throw the coin to you, thus you believe that someone else exists simply by witnessing their power.

does this example do some good?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

ok heres an example although there are many better ones, but i just like to use this;

you and i are both looking at a wall, you on one side, me on the other, the wall is very tall nd very long. you do not know that i am on the other side, but i do. i throw a coin at you or anything for that matter and after you see that the coin came from the other side of the wall, you do know that someone on the other side exists, why? because they were able to throw the coin to you, thus you believe that someone else exists simply by witnessing their power.

does this example do some good?

Okay, sure. I see what you mean.

 

[Gharib]

and do you know from which powers we can define that god exists? or his ability.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Go ahead, tell me.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

well you see, the quran isn't written from the dessert people, if so, then how would some sheppard, who spent all his time in the sun and in the dessert come to know, how a child is formed in the woumb of it's mother, come to know what the structure of the mountains is and explain it in very detail, and knew the shape of clouds when they rained

Oh please, the Qur’ân describes mountains as anchoring the earth, fixing it so it won’t shake. Except mountains themselves prove in the inherent instability of the crust of the planet we live on! The Qur’ân’s embryonic ‘knowledge’ falls woefully short of fact, and some of it comes copied from incorrect notions taught by Greek medicine.

you forgot to mentione the clouds.

LOL, brilliant eselam....
You know we talked about the Quran's "description" of embryogenesis in this thread already....

 

[McBell]

whats this about?

It is about your assumptions.

 

[Gharib]

It is about your assumptions.

what about them, what have i assumed?

 

[Gharib]

LOL, brilliant eselam....
You know we talked about the Quran's "description" of embryogenesis in this thread already....

yeh i know but i never was a part of that thread, and by the way kodanshi braught it up

 

[Kodanshi]

Actually, YOU did by claiming that the Qur’ân contains, inter alia, accurate knowledge of embryology.

As for the wall experiment, with the two of you on other sides, you would have to take a logical and rational course of action. Assuming that someone threw the coin sounds reasonable. You would then go about trying to prove this unequivocally.

However, religious people do not do this! They happily settle for the notion that GODDIDIT! I would liken it to the following satirical cartoon:

 

[Gharib]

Actually, YOU did by claiming that the Qur’ân contains, inter alia, accurate knowledge of embryology.

really?. i appologise then, sorry.

As for the wall experiment, with the two of you on other sides, you would have to take a logical and rational course of action. Assuming that someone threw the coin sounds reasonable. You would then go about trying to prove this unequivocally.

ofcourse just as with god, that why i believe in Allah, i don't say he says so and that it.

However, religious people do not do this! They happily settle for the notion that GODDIDIT! I would liken it to the following satirical cartoon:

no, there is proof that Allah exists, what happened to the post i made to you? the one about global warming. have a look at it, it is one of the countless proofs that Allah exists, but if you do not wish ot accept it then not my fault. but you can't say that Allah does not exist, my poin that i made in that post totally proves his existence.

also if you were a muslim you would know that Allah says in many verses that true believers are those who believe in the unseen.

here are some verses for you;

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
[2:1] A.L.M.
[2:2] This scripture is infallible; a beacon for the righteous;
[2:3] who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.
[2:4] And they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, and with regard to the Hereafter, they are absolutely certain.
[2:5] These are guided by their Lord; these are the winners.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

yeh i know but i never was a part of that thread, and by the way kodanshi braught it up

And furthermore, he forgot to mention the clouds.