WHY I LEFT ISLAM - The Story of An Apostate In Saudi

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
I agree with you.
If they would have ridiculed, that would have been insulting.
Regards

Story says Jesus died for All mankind not only Christian , everyone even the unborn .

Jesus did not die on the Cross after Jesus supposedly 'died' on the cross a Roman soldier made a decision not to break the legs of Jesus while on the cross. The episode fulfilled a prophecy as mentioned in the Gospel of John (19:36) reference OT Psalms 34:20 - "a bone of his shall not be broken" and that is how one died if the bones were broken.
Your argument is wrong. Jesus died for none, not even for the Christians.
Regards

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

paarsurrey said: ↑
I agree with you.
If they would have ridiculed, that would have been insulting.
Regards

Jesus did not die on the Cross after Jesus supposedly 'died' on the cross a Roman soldier made a decision not to break the legs of Jesus while on the cross. The episode fulfilled a prophecy as mentioned in the Gospel of John (19:36) reference OT Psalms 34:20 - "a bone of his shall not be broken" and that is how one died if the bones were broken.
Your argument is wrong. Jesus died for none, not even for the Christians.
Regards

Irrelevant you was suggest Christians think Muslims go to hell I was say is not true .

 

[Sleeppy]

paarsurrey said: ↑
I agree with you.
If they would have ridiculed, that would have been insulting.
Regards

Jesus did not die on the Cross after Jesus supposedly 'died' on the cross a Roman soldier made a decision not to break the legs of Jesus while on the cross. The episode fulfilled a prophecy as mentioned in the Gospel of John (19:36) reference OT Psalms 34:20 - "a bone of his shall not be broken" and that is how one died if the bones were broken.
Your argument is wrong. Jesus died for none, not even for the Christians.
Regards

You're forgetting that they put a spear through his side, at which point blood and water poured out. Sign of death.

Not to mention Isaiah 53:12

I give a portion to him among the many. With the mighty he apportions spoil, because that he exposed to death his soul. With transgressors he was numbered, and he the sin of many has borne. For transgressors he intercedes.

Anyway, off topic.

 

[Shia Islam]

This thread is gobsmacking in so many ways, I don't even know where to start. That said, this seems like a clear claim, that we can look at on its own...

Shia-Islam, Let me ask you this: Can you name a modern, Muslim majority country in which Christians and Jews are not being pushed out? As far as I know, it's extremely hard these days to be anything other than a Muslim in a Muslim majority country.

This is an important point, because the rest of the world does its best to be tolerant of Muslim immigrants, and yet Muslims seem very intolerant of non-Muslims in "their countries".

Christians and Jews tend to be more tolerated in Sunni Countries than the Shiites...
We all remember how Shiites in Egypt were lynched just for being Shiites, while Christians are generally are free to practice their religion in Egypt...

The only Shiite country that says to be implementing Islam is Iran. And non-Muslims are not targeted for their religion there. indeed, the Jews in Iran, although there number is very tiny, they have an MP in the parliament and their living conditions are better than the average Iranians.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Shia Islam,

I did a little research. In 1948 three were 150,000 Jews in Iran. Today there are less than 9,000.

 

[Smart_Guy]

And I agree. As far as people go, I know you to be great people.

The problem starts because you do not represent all of islam.

So to try and give an example of what I'm talking about, it would be the same if we said YEC have good people too. Yes they do. But they still place a book before science and education and credible knowledge much the same way islam requires complete devotion to their lives.

With this level of devotion however, many people in the religion do terrible things to other muslims and others people from other places because of the religion and this level of devotion.

Thank you for having that thought, OH (Outhouse).

The thing is, no one can ever represent anything belief/religion/theology in full nowadays, neither for himself nor for others. A Muslim cannot represent all of Islam, an atheist cannot represent all of atheism, a feminist cannot represent all of feminism, a video gamer cannot represent all video gamers, and so on. Devotion is not a bad thing. I'm a devoted Muslim who can never accept changing the words in the Quran, for example.

It can be taken many ways, but Muhammad did warn the people about levels of devotion.

I think back to the glory days or golden age of islam when education was placed before the koran, right after islam originated. I think these people had a proper grasp of the religion.

That was lost with time as people became too devoted. IMHO

He did indeed, and many Muslims don't take it, but many other do take it. Also, just because the Golden Age of Islam was prosperous, which is something you like, it does not necessarily mean it was because Muslims then put education before the Quran just because the result was satisfying to you. There is no telling that what was done in the Golden age was actually achieved because Muslims those days were really not following the Quran.

Remove the confusion. The death penalty may apply for those who murder, for those who spread mischief in the land, and for those who apostate and do not withdraw peacefully.

Because there is room here for the spirit of Cain to overcome, it has. Remove the death penalty altogether; it is not an effective solution in any of these cases. Mercy and sustenance are the preventatives of murder, mischief, and alienation- and this is the only way toward God's strength in peace.

Well, many Muslims are already working on removing confusions.

I don't believe merely removing a penalty, what ever it is, is always the answer. Death penalty has to be there somewhere between the lines. What has to be done is knowing exactly when and how to apply it with giving full awareness for it. What has to be done in the first place is stopping the causes of the penalty before looking at it itself. Removing death penalty, for example, does not necessarily equate mercy. In so many cases it is mercy, like in the many cases of murderers murdering the innocent again because they were not executed, and it is mercy to have a murderer die instead of many innocents murdered by that murderer. The same thing could go with some other crimes like brutal child rape.

That's just my view of course.

 

[MARCELLO]

I again feel to comment that people without any oriental experience should not have anything to say about what's going around in sheria ruled countries. Believe me or not, sheria does not hang you in case you are not a maniac .

 

[Jumi]

I'm fine with hanging murderers, but not people who just think different.

 

[paarsurrey]

You're forgetting that they put a spear through his side, at which point blood and water poured out. Sign of death.
Not to mention Isaiah 53:12
I give a portion to him among the many. With the mighty he apportions spoil, because that he exposed to death his soul. With transgressors he was numbered, and he the sin of many has borne. For transgressors he intercedes.
Anyway, off topic.

Corpses Do Not Bleed
An important piece of information is mentioned in the Gospel of John which supports the view that Jesus did not die on the cross:
"One of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water" (John 19:34).
Blood pouring out is a sign of intact circulation, with the spear injuring an arteriole. Note the words 'sudden flow' which implies blood pressure. The 'water' was perhaps pleural fluid, present between the rib cage and lungs.
As blood does not rush out of corpses, the quoted verse did present a problem to at least one Church Father, Origen. In his exegesis of John 19:34, he admitted that blood coagulates after death, but the flow of blood in this case constituted a miracle and thus needed no explanation. (Contra Celsus, by Origen, translated by H. Chadwick, Cambridge U).
The spear thrust into the side of Jesus was not meant as a kind of definitive blow, but as a rough (and actually inaccurate) indicator if death had occurred. If the intent were to kill, the soldier would have stabbed into the front of the chest to injure the heart. However, in the event the person was not on the cross for sufficient length of time, death was usually caused by breaking the legs, as was done with the individuals hanging along side Jesus.
http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I again feel to comment that people without any oriental experience should not have anything to say about what's going around in sheria ruled countries. Believe me or not, sheria does not hang you in case you are not a maniac .

Right, because we're not allowed to voice opinions on things we hear are happening in lands far away. Ever. I guess Raif Badawi can forget about international pressure to end his unjust sentence and barbaric punishment for his non-crimes then. Immoral acts committed through a religion that claims to be a complete, perfect moral & political system needed to be exposed and challenged at every opportunity - otherwise Islam's claims to such go unchallenged and people are more inclined to see it for what it claims to do as opposed to how it really works.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Corpses Do Not Bleed
An important piece of information is mentioned in the Gospel of John which supports the view that Jesus did not die on the cross:
"One of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water" (John 19:34).
Blood pouring out is a sign of intact circulation, with the spear injuring an arteriole. Note the words 'sudden flow' which implies blood pressure. The 'water' was perhaps pleural fluid, present between the rib cage and lungs.
As blood does not rush out of corpses, the quoted verse did present a problem to at least one Church Father, Origen. In his exegesis of John 19:34, he admitted that blood coagulates after death, but the flow of blood in this case constituted a miracle and thus needed no explanation. (Contra Celsus, by Origen, translated by H. Chadwick, Cambridge U).
The spear thrust into the side of Jesus was not meant as a kind of definitive blow, but as a rough (and actually inaccurate) indicator if death had occurred. If the intent were to kill, the soldier would have stabbed into the front of the chest to injure the heart. However, in the event the person was not on the cross for sufficient length of time, death was usually caused by breaking the legs, as was done with the individuals hanging along side Jesus.
http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
Regards

Breaking the legs was done if the victims were taking too long to die. Roman soldiers were ordered to remain on site until those crucified had expired - which could take hours or even days.

The following quote is taken from this book: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14750495

"The attending Roman guards could only leave the site after the victim had died, and were known to precipitate death by means of deliberate fracturing of the tibia and/or fibula, spear stab wounds into the heart, sharp blows to the front of the chest, or a smoking fire built at the foot of the cross to asphyxiate the victim."


That said, some people would have expired under the strain their systems were placed under from the practise; shock and adrenaline would have contributed to exhaustion.

Regarding the blood: as a victim of crucifixion, Jesus was suspended vertically so of course there was going to be a rush of blood out of his body as it would have flowed downwards with the force of gravity. Also, he was stabbed shortly after death meaning his body hadn't begun to dry out which would have caused causing his blood to lose the water therein.

 

[Sleeppy]

Well, many Muslims are already working on removing confusions.

I don't believe merely removing a penalty, what ever it is, is always the answer. Death penalty has to be there somewhere between the lines. What has to be done is knowing exactly when and how to apply it with giving full awareness for it. What has to be done in the first place is stopping the causes of the penalty before looking at it itself. Removing death penalty, for example, does not necessarily equate mercy. In so many cases it is mercy, like in the many cases of murderers murdering the innocent again because they were not executed, and it is mercy to have a murderer die instead of many innocents murdered by that murderer. The same thing could go with some other crimes like brutal child rape.

That's just my view of course.

I won't convince you with words. I urge you to continue observing the laws of God being manifest. Remove the death penalty and focus on the things which prevent conflict. I want to remind you that the innocent have already been executed. According to Islamic law, it's as if the entire populace has been murdered. This a perpetual curse, and because of it we are seeing the Earth itself judge according to the judgments being measured out. The Earth is cursed; the air is cursed; the seas are cursed; the animals are going instinct; war has become a generational inheritance; hunger is becoming more and more prevalent; and confusion is abounding. Those who do not forgive, fall short of the understanding of God's reign; that His will is not subverted, and that idolatry (specifically autolatry) is the fruit of the doctrine of free will. When we do not seek to steal from God; the one who is not a part from any power, but is almighty, we do what is best. We begin with this understanding and are able not only to reform them who would go after the spirit of Cain, which set the precedent for murder, mischief, and discord, but we are also able to prevent the spirit of Cain from ruling the sons of man. This is the truth.

But, what judgement you have is coming against you and the World, first.

 

[Sleeppy]

Corpses Do Not Bleed
An important piece of information is mentioned in the Gospel of John which supports the view that Jesus did not die on the cross:
"One of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water" (John 19:34).
Blood pouring out is a sign of intact circulation, with the spear injuring an arteriole. Note the words 'sudden flow' which implies blood pressure. The 'water' was perhaps pleural fluid, present between the rib cage and lungs.
As blood does not rush out of corpses, the quoted verse did present a problem to at least one Church Father, Origen. In his exegesis of John 19:34, he admitted that blood coagulates after death, but the flow of blood in this case constituted a miracle and thus needed no explanation. (Contra Celsus, by Origen, translated by H. Chadwick, Cambridge U).
The spear thrust into the side of Jesus was not meant as a kind of definitive blow, but as a rough (and actually inaccurate) indicator if death had occurred. If the intent were to kill, the soldier would have stabbed into the front of the chest to injure the heart. However, in the event the person was not on the cross for sufficient length of time, death was usually caused by breaking the legs, as was done with the individuals hanging along side Jesus.
http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
Regards

Again, you're forgetting something:

He had literally just died. He was not dead long enough for the blood to coagulate.

 

[Kirran]

Pigs would be happy that Muslims don't eat them and don't kill them.
Regards

The same would presumably apply to cows, camels, sheep, chickens, fish, ducks, goats...

 

[paarsurrey]

The same would presumably apply to cows, camels, sheep, chickens, fish, ducks, goats...

Some people are very agitated, like Christopher Hitchens, that Muslims don't eat swine. They would themselves don't spare anything from eating.
Regards

 

[Kirran]

Some people are very agitated, like Christopher Hitchens, that Muslims don't eat swine. They would themselves don't spare anything from eating.
Regards

You don't seem to understand my point.

I'm saying fair enough, pigs may well be happy at not being killed and eaten by Muslims. But wouldn't cows, sheep, chickens etc be happy if you didn't eat them either?

 

[Jumi]

Some people are very agitated, like Christopher Hitchens, that Muslims don't eat swine. They would themselves don't spare anything from eating.

I'm also not a fan of pig meat and avoid it when I can. I buy it for pets sometimes. I respect anyone's wishes to eat how they like. I don't know why Hitchens had a problem with not eating pig or what his argument was.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I won't convince you with words. I urge you to continue observing the laws of God being manifest. Remove the death penalty and focus on the things which prevent conflict. I want to remind you that the innocent have already been executed. According to Islamic law, it's as if the entire populace has been murdered. This a perpetual curse, and because of it we are seeing the Earth itself judge according to the judgments being measured out. The Earth is cursed; the air is cursed; the seas are cursed; the animals are going instinct; war has become a generational inheritance; hunger is becoming more and more prevalent; and confusion is abounding. Those who do not forgive, fall short of the understanding of God's reign; that His will is not subverted, and that idolatry (specifically autolatry) is the fruit of the doctrine of free will. When we do not seek to steal from God; the one who is not a part from any power, but is almighty, we do what is best. We begin with this understanding and are able not only to reform them who would go after the spirit of Cain, which set the precedent for murder, mischief, and discord, but we are also able to prevent the spirit of Cain from ruling the sons of man. This is the truth.

But, what judgement you have is coming against you and the World, first.

It is not a matter of wanting my view the right one, it is just a matter of being a belief that one cannot see it negated. No matter how much one tries to believe a belief wrong, it most likely cannot be seen wrong because of the strong inner feeling that one cannot normally deny.

You seem to put the emphasis on forgiveness, forgetting the importance of rights and the health of the community. Forgiveness is already there in Islam and highly recommended and commended as long as one still has their right in either having justice delivered or forgive. Forgiveness is not something to be enforced over rightfulness. Penalties are not there to inflict pain, they are there as a means to return rights to the people and the health of the community if applied correctly.

 

[Kirran]

It is not a matter of wanting my view the right one, it is just a matter of being a belief that one cannot see it negated. No matter how much one tries to believe a belief wrong, it most likely cannot be seen wrong because of the strong inner feeling that one cannot normally deny.

You seem to put the emphasis on forgiveness, forgetting the importance of rights and the health of the community. Forgiveness is already there in Islam and highly recommended and commended as long as one still has their right in either having justice delivered or forgive. Forgiveness is not something to be enforced over rightfulness. Penalties are not their to inflict pain, they are there as a means to return rights to the people and the health of the community if applied correctly.

Do you think there's ever a need for the death penalty in this day and age?

 

[Sleeppy]

It is not a matter of wanting my view the right one, it is just a matter of being a belief that one cannot see it negated. No matter how much one tries to believe a belief wrong, it most likely cannot be seen wrong because of the strong inner feeling that one cannot normally deny.

You seem to put the emphasis on forgiveness, forgetting the importance of rights and the health of the community. Forgiveness is already there in Islam and highly recommended and commended as long as one still has their right in either having justice delivered or forgive. Forgiveness is not something to be enforced over rightfulness. Penalties are not their to inflict pain, they are there as a means to return rights to the people and the health of the community if applied correctly.

The rights and health of the community are the sole purpose of forgiveness. Measure the health of the world society and remember what I'm telling you for a future date.