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Why is a Muslim considered faithful if they do bad things in the name of the Quran?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thanks.

Of course, the question and and perhaps should be asked in the Islaamic DIRs. But there is only so much that can be said in DIRs.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Interesting cause I placed myself in a couple DIR's lol
Yes, people can do that. I posted in the Jewish DIR quite a while ago and got chastised for not practicing Judaism which is the meaning of that DIR since I don't identify as practicing Judaism. The title for the DIR section is "These forums are for the use of members who identify with th"
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
People who have a hostility to a specific religion, or religions in general, tend to see fundamentalists as representing the 'true' religion because it's all the better to support their prejudices.

IMO, a natural, easily defensible definition of Islamic fundamentalist would end up including perhaps 30-50% of all Muslims. Large, multi-country polls indicate that half of the world's Muslims believe that the world* should be ruled by Sharia. This seems like a good definition of "fundamentalist", as such a belief runs counter to most of the rest of the world.

* typo - used to say "rule"
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
But when they do good things in the name of the Quran (Yes there ARE good verses as well to specifically avoid harming innocents, no force conversion ect.) they are considered unfaithful to the Muslim faith?

Anyone notice that?

And how are they unfaithful to Islam? According to who? The radical terrorists or the ultra conservative clerics who were nutcases to begin with? Why take their word for it? They consider everyone impure anyway.

It's kind of dumb that when people see a good muslim they automatically think that he's not a "real Muslim" because a real muslim in their mind is supposed to force convert everyone and everything they see. There's a billion of them and most don't go around doing this kind of stuff. And because they follow the Quran that doesn't mean they all have the same beliefs. I guess that's why there's you know, different sects of Islam? Not all follow every rule, some interpret it different or read other texts as well.

There are always contradictions in holy texts, same with the bible too. Why not just look at the person themselves.

They aren't close to being the real enemy when there are groups out there that are far more dangerous them them

A couple of points:

- How about if people - instead of "doing good things in the name of.." - just did good things because it's the right thing to do?

- While I agree that most of the 1.5 billion don't act as adversaries to the rest of the world. a lot of them support those Muslims that do act in adversarial ways.

- Who's the "real enemy" then, and what are they the enemy of?

IMO, Islam is an enemy of secularism and modern human rights.
 

RoaringSilence

Active Member
But when they do good things in the name of the Quran (Yes there ARE good verses as well to specifically avoid harming innocents, no force conversion ect.) they are considered unfaithful to the Muslim faith?

Anyone notice that?

And how are they unfaithful to Islam? According to who? The radical terrorists or the ultra conservative clerics who were nutcases to begin with? Why take their word for it? They consider everyone impure anyway.

It's kind of dumb that when people see a good muslim they automatically think that he's not a "real Muslim" because a real muslim in their mind is supposed to force convert everyone and everything they see. There's a billion of them and most don't go around doing this kind of stuff. And because they follow the Quran that doesn't mean they all have the same beliefs. I guess that's why there's you know, different sects of Islam? Not all follow every rule, some interpret it different or read other texts as well.

There are always contradictions in holy texts, same with the bible too. Why not just look at the person themselves.

They aren't close to being the real enemy when there are groups out there that are far more dangerous them them
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But when they do good things in the name of the Quran (Yes there ARE good verses as well to specifically avoid harming innocents, no force conversion ect.) they are considered unfaithful to the Muslim faith?

People can always find an excuse to back up their agenda. If a terrorist decides that what he's doing is right in his twisted mind, he'll justify it with a scripture from his book. The nice Muslim doing the right thing will find verses in the same book to justify his kindness. That's not an exclusive to Islam.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Yes, people can do that. I posted in the Jewish DIR quite a while ago and got chastised for not practicing Judaism which is the meaning of that DIR since I don't identify as practicing Judaism. The title for the DIR section is "These forums are for the use of members who identify with th"

hmmm
 

socharlie

Active Member
But when they do good things in the name of the Quran (Yes there ARE good verses as well to specifically avoid harming innocents, no force conversion ect.) they are considered unfaithful to the Muslim faith?

Anyone notice that?

And how are they unfaithful to Islam? According to who? The radical terrorists or the ultra conservative clerics who were nutcases to begin with? Why take their word for it? They consider everyone impure anyway.

It's kind of dumb that when people see a good muslim they automatically think that he's not a "real Muslim" because a real muslim in their mind is supposed to force convert everyone and everything they see. There's a billion of them and most don't go around doing this kind of stuff. And because they follow the Quran that doesn't mean they all have the same beliefs. I guess that's why there's you know, different sects of Islam? Not all follow every rule, some interpret it different or read other texts as well.

There are always contradictions in holy texts, same with the bible too. Why not just look at the person themselves.

They aren't close to being the real enemy when there are groups out there that are far more dangerous them them
since they do bad things to each other - only part of them is faithful, one that does bad thing.
 
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Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
People who have a hostility to a specific religion, or religions in general, tend to see fundamentalists as representing the 'true' religion because it's all the better to support their prejudices.

This would probably be the best answer.

It is a shame they would listen to the fundamentalists of all people but why look to them? Because they speak the loudest?

Sometimes if I point out the good things some Muslims have done, I am somehow denying all of the bad things bad Muslims did. I'm not. I'm just smart enough to know there are good and bad muslims out there. The only religions that I see that CAN be all bad are very small limited cults that do bad things to others, but most of them aren't well known and are very secretive.

They are so busy focusing on the bad Muslims, they don't take the time to know there are good ones out there.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
@Theweirdtophat I agree with you about Muslims.

The fact about people that criticize Muslims when they're good or bad is it's a matter of d*mned if they do or don't. Muslims are going to be seen as the enemy or other no matter what, and that's not fair.

I've done work with Muslims in the local interfaith community here. Most of them are just like anyone else. They just want happiness and to live their lives.

One of my best friends is Muslim and studying to become a liberal scholar. He brought about inclusion for LGBT Muslims at the local Islamic Center.
 
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Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Reasonable people do not think that way. The point here is not whether one can be good and tolerant as a Muslim while being faithful to Quran and Hadith (Yes Certainly ) but whether one can be violent and intolerant as a Muslim while also being faithful to the Quran and Hadith. The answer to the latter also seem to be yes.

I think the most useful and reasonable thing we could do as non-Muslims is to support and stand as allies with the good Muslims against fanatical ideologies. That's just my thoughts about what you said.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
And what were the Muslims doing that made the Buddhists angry enough to kill? Much of it seems retaliatory

Please don't appeal to a complex political situation that's more about conflicts between ethnic groups in a fledgling democracy so lightly. There's nothing Buddhist about killing for political reasons.

What is happening in Myanmar is a terrible misuse of Buddhism, where appealed to. Buddhists are only permitted to defend ourselves and the Dharma against absolute annihilation.

We are not to act in anger, prejudice, or in accord with anything other than truth.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
IMO, a natural, easily defensible definition of Islamic fundamentalist would end up including perhaps 30-50% of all Muslims. Large, multi-country polls indicate that half of the world's Muslims believe that the rule should be ruled by Sharia. This seems like a good definition of "fundamentalist", as such a belief runs counter to most of the rest of the world.
Perhaps even more significant is that even the idea of liberal Muslims is difficult to implement in practice.

Many Muslims aren't very devout and would probably be considered lapsed were it not for the immersion in cultural practices that surrounds them. But true liberal thinking just doesn't get any traction in the Islaamic world. It is labeled "innovation" and considered wrong as a matter of course.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
A lot of people seem to want to justify hating them and not take the time to actually know some. These are the kind of people that watch main stream media which lies anyway and read about 2 pages of the Quran. So they don't really have the best frame of reference.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
A lot of people seem to want to justify hating them and not take the time to actually know some. These are the kind of people that watch main stream media which lies anyway and read about 2 pages of the Quran. So they don't really have the best frame of reference.

As you indicated earlier, there are 1.5 billion Muslims. Knowing a handful isn't statistically meaningful. Instead, I'd like to hear of an example of a Muslim majority country that's "successful" by any modern standards of human rights, or significant contributions to the world (e.g. science, art, technology..)?
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
As you indicated earlier, there are 1.5 billion Muslims. Knowing a handful isn't statistically meaningful. Instead, I'd like to hear of an example of a Muslim majority country that's "successful" by any modern standards of human rights, or significant contributions to the world (e.g. science, art, technology..)?

There are examples. You just haven't found them or were aware. Knowing some decent Muslims is however proof there are good ones as well as bad. Saying they all have the same beliefs because they read the Quran is like saying Catholics and Protestants are the same for reading the New Testament.

Muslims in Kazakstan will not be the same as the ones from Saudia Arabia

Arabs were known well for contributions in science and art. Look at their culture and laws. That has more to do with it than their religion.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
There are examples. You just haven't found them or were aware. Knowing some decent Muslims is however proof there are good ones as well as bad. Saying they all have the same beliefs because they read the Quran is like saying Catholics and Protestants are the same for reading the New Testament.

Muslims in Kazakstan will not be the same as the ones from Saudia Arabia

Arabs were known well for contributions in science and art. Look at their culture and laws. That has more to do with it than their religion.

I'm not talking about 1000 years ago, I'm talking about now. And, BTW, I don't recall anyone here saying that there are no decent Muslims. Of course there are, and it's a pretty blatant strawman on your part to hint at anything different.

And also, I didn't bring up the Quran or the Bible did I? All I said was: show us some modern evidence that Islam leads to good results.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
I'm not talking about 1000 years ago, I'm talking about now. And, BTW, I don't recall anyone here saying that there are no decent Muslims. Of course there are, and it's a pretty blatant strawman on your part to hint at anything different.

And also, I didn't bring up the Quran or the Bible did I? All I said was: show us some modern evidence that Islam leads to good results.

You seem to think the most artistic or involved or technologically advanced translates to good and moral. That isn't the case.


You don't have to bring it up. Plenty of others do that as well. You seem to think there are good ones yet you don't seem that convinced, which is why you think Islam doesn't bring good things.

We need to stop thinking about race and religion and look at the people themselves. I couldn't care less what they believe. They are not moral or immoral because they are Muslim. Take that away you will still have the same kind of person. What you're asking for is unnecessary and doesn't really have the "answer" you are wanting. You may as well ask if Heathens or Druids brought anything good to the table or changed the world.

We know there are Muslim teachers, doctors, lawyers scientists ect. We know there are good ones out there. Isn't that enough?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You seem to think the most artistic or involved or technologically advanced translates to good and moral.

I think defending human rights is moral. And yes, I think science and technology have mostly made our lives better. We live longer, we're healthier, many horrible diseases have been cured, and so on. This is not to say that we don't have our problems, of course we do, but there is a reason that 1000 times more people want to leave Muslim majority countries than want to move to them.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
I think defending human rights is moral. And yes, I think science and technology have mostly made our lives better. We live longer, we're healthier, many horrible diseases have been cured, and so on. This is not to say that we don't have our problems, of course we do, but there is a reason that 1000 times more people want to leave Muslim majority countries than want to move to them.

It is true that some do not defend human rights. But I look at their laws and how zealous they are. Some Muslim countries don't follow sharia law and if they do, they don't follow it all the way. We live longer but we can live so much better if humanity knew what was really going on behind the scenes

Countries with backward laws will eventually phase out in time, as the other countries did. It's a matter of how and when it will happen.
 
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