WOW! This is actually great and very deep. Too deep to unpackage here for each line is packed with potential in and of itself and can be a thread.
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Why Jews don't believe in Jesus
- Thread starter Eliana
- Start date
WOW! This is actually great and very deep. Too deep to unpackage here for each line is packed with potential in and of itself and can be a thread.
Eliana
Member
No, I said I don't care what non-Jews and non-observant Jews think about Halakha. I did not say only Jews have the correct viewpoint on anything. I also don't care what some Christian on youtube has to say.
Eliana
Member
I am citing Jewish law on the subject, not my opinion. The forum rules do not trump HaShem and I would never participate in a forum that tries to claim otherwise. Ask any Halakha observant Jew here and they'll tell you the same thing. I am not trying to convince anyone to see things my way, they are trying to convince me to see it theirs.
my error - my appologies
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Depends on how one interprets this. Baruch Spinoza, for example, believed that the example that Jesus set was the epitome of compassion that all should follow but obviously he was not a Christian nor believed Jesus was a messiah.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I was referring to Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah, Yeshua Hamashiach, as described on this website, Jewish Voice.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, but I wanted to clarify that Jewish attitudes about Jesus are quite mixed.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I thought so, but I also wanted to clarify what I meant.
When I was a Christian evangelist, I participated in ministries with Messianic Jews, and I was impressed by their personal devotion to their beliefs.
I suspect that most fringe groups have devoted followers. Why would you find that impressive?
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Good. I'll keep that in mind for the future. I consider you a friend. I'm glad you were happy.
Balthazzar
N. Germanic Descent
I think it's important to note that that which is enduring is enduring. Even we are temporal. Most things are, including words marked in textbooks. The essence, spirit, substance of, etc are far more ever present than that which has been written about it.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, as a good friend of mine is a MJ. We need always to remember this: "2 Jews have 3 opinions on just about everything".
There are volumes written on that which is enduring and never plumbing the depths of its content when what is written is spiritual. Temporal will pass away, but the which is spirit and truth will never pass away.
This is Jeronimo's testimony (It is evident that his testimony comes 1) after the destruction of Jerusalem, when Jewish Christians were accused of 'high treason' for fleeing the city; 2) after the Jewish wars; 3) after the weakening of the Christian episcopate of the circumcision in Jerusalem.)
Today there still exists among the Jews in all the synagogues of the East a heresy which is called Minaenes, and which is still condemned by the Pharisees; [his followers] are usually called 'Nasarenes'; they believe that Christ, the son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary, and they consider him to be the one who suffered under Pontius Pilate and ascended to heaven, and in whom we also believe. But although they pretend to be Jews and Christians, they are neither. — Jerome. Epistle 75 to Augustine.
I'm not going to get into the subject of what is true or what is not...
Preaching 'the blood of Jesus' upon the Jews in the synagogues of the Jews was complicated for the churches of Judea, yet they grew nonetheless. Consider the level of religious tolerance among the Jews in the majority. The mission of Jesus was extremely complex. Look at the following messages:
All of this by itself is very confronting, Behold, in the already considerable instability of the situation, the text of the Gospel of the Ebionites emerges, which some claim to be the same as that of the Nazarenes:
'I came to abolish sacrifices: If you do not cease offering sacrifices, the wrath (of God) will not cease to weigh upon you. Epifânio, Haeres. XXX 16
Could this doctrinal formation have happened because the Nazarenes were expelled from the synagogues and later might have been prohibited from making sacrifices, or did they incorporate these doctrines due to a lack of understanding of Jesus’s true mission, as previously discussed in the numbered posts?
Daniel 12:11-13 (NIV)
“From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. “As for you, go your way till the end.
What did Jesus teach about sacrifices and offerings?
This field is studied by renowned masters and doctors with various books. It is indeed a very complex subject. Perhaps I know only a small part of the subject.
Gentile Christians should only comply with the determinations of the Council of Jerusalem and the natural laws of their countries.
Does the Tanakh prophesy that sacrifices should be abolished?
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Why Jews don't believe in Jesus
Jews of our time can never believe in Christian-Jesus as Christianity people make "Jesus-god" and or literal/physical "son of god" which he never was.
Right?
4:172
O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion, and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers, and say not ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, Allah is the only One God. Far is it from His Holiness that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a Guardian.
4:173
Surely, the Messiah will never disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor will the angels near unto God; and whoso disdains to worship Him and feels proud, He will gather them all to Himself.
www.alislam.org
______________________
4:172-173
یٰۤاَہۡلَ الۡکِتٰبِ لَا تَغۡلُوۡا فِیۡ دِیۡنِکُمۡ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا عَلَی اللّٰہِ اِلَّا الۡحَقَّ ؕ اِنَّمَا الۡمَسِیۡحُ عِیۡسَی ابۡنُ مَرۡیَمَ رَسُوۡلُ اللّٰہِ وَکَلِمَتُہٗ ۚ اَلۡقٰہَاۤ اِلٰی مَرۡیَمَ وَرُوۡحٌ مِّنۡہُ ۫ فَاٰمِنُوۡا بِاللّٰہِ وَرُسُلِہٖ ۚ۟ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا ثَلٰثَۃٌ ؕ اِنۡتَہُوۡا خَیۡرًا لَّکُمۡ ؕ اِنَّمَا اللّٰہُ اِلٰہٌ وَّاحِدٌ ؕ سُبۡحٰنَہٗۤ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ لَہٗ وَلَدٌ ۘ لَہٗ مَا فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ وَمَا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ وَکَفٰی بِاللّٰہِ وَکِیۡلًا ﴿۱۷۲
لَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفَ الۡمَسِیۡحُ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ عَبۡدًا لِّلّٰہِ وَلَا الۡمَلٰٓئِکَۃُ الۡمُقَرَّبُوۡنَ ؕ وَمَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفۡ عَنۡ عِبَادَتِہٖ وَیَسۡتَکۡبِرۡ فَسَیَحۡشُرُہُمۡ اِلَیۡہِ جَمِیۡعًا ﴿۱۷۳﴾
paarsurrey wrote:
A "weird mathematics" of Pauline-Christendom, right, please?
Regards
Jews of our time can never believe in Christian-Jesus as Christianity people make "Jesus-god" and or literal/physical "son of god" which he never was.
Right?
4:172
O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion, and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers, and say not ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, Allah is the only One God. Far is it from His Holiness that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a Guardian.
4:173
Surely, the Messiah will never disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor will the angels near unto God; and whoso disdains to worship Him and feels proud, He will gather them all to Himself.
www.alislam.org
______________________
4:172-173
یٰۤاَہۡلَ الۡکِتٰبِ لَا تَغۡلُوۡا فِیۡ دِیۡنِکُمۡ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا عَلَی اللّٰہِ اِلَّا الۡحَقَّ ؕ اِنَّمَا الۡمَسِیۡحُ عِیۡسَی ابۡنُ مَرۡیَمَ رَسُوۡلُ اللّٰہِ وَکَلِمَتُہٗ ۚ اَلۡقٰہَاۤ اِلٰی مَرۡیَمَ وَرُوۡحٌ مِّنۡہُ ۫ فَاٰمِنُوۡا بِاللّٰہِ وَرُسُلِہٖ ۚ۟ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا ثَلٰثَۃٌ ؕ اِنۡتَہُوۡا خَیۡرًا لَّکُمۡ ؕ اِنَّمَا اللّٰہُ اِلٰہٌ وَّاحِدٌ ؕ سُبۡحٰنَہٗۤ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ لَہٗ وَلَدٌ ۘ لَہٗ مَا فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ وَمَا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ وَکَفٰی بِاللّٰہِ وَکِیۡلًا ﴿۱۷۲
لَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفَ الۡمَسِیۡحُ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ عَبۡدًا لِّلّٰہِ وَلَا الۡمَلٰٓئِکَۃُ الۡمُقَرَّبُوۡنَ ؕ وَمَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفۡ عَنۡ عِبَادَتِہٖ وَیَسۡتَکۡبِرۡ فَسَیَحۡشُرُہُمۡ اِلَیۡہِ جَمِیۡعًا ﴿۱۷۳﴾
Someone here said that each 'godperson' was 1/3 of the godhead. 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 whole.
paarsurrey wrote:
A "weird mathematics" of Pauline-Christendom, right, please?
Regards
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Balthazzar
N. Germanic Descent
Weird, I was under the impression that the sacrifices, or burnt offerings were initiated and determined by the Lords who made the decisions, whether to require them or to abolish them during their tenures. I eventually started viewing them as a way to feed the broader communities less fortunate, although that is speculation on my part. Maybe I'm mistaken, but Jesus did suggest feeding his sheep to be expected from Peter who was given the directive to build his church. Why would this be viewed as something taboo given its history from Genesis (Cain and Able) reference, on throughout the rest of the scriptures where it seems to fluctuate in practice? A sweet smelling savor were the burnt offerings and they still are to many of us.
BrightShadow
Active Member
That is not what the original quote implied! So, in that case Jews are allowed to enter a Mosque since there is no idol worship going on in the Mosques. Correct?
*staff edit*
N.B. - By the way - anyone interested can just google the words "weirdest", "bizarre", "Jewish", "rules", "customs" and see for themselves what I mean when I said - "questionable beliefs and practices". It will be off-topic to list them here! So, I won't!
Since (according to the net) Judaism accounts for just 0.19% of the world's total population and the rates of leaving the Ultra-orthodox observance range from 5-20% in different communities - is it fair to say - Judaism is becoming more of a race or ethnicity than a religion?
Now could that be what Moses wanted? Was Moses promoting a race? I think not!
*staff edit*
In my opinion, Jesus tried to do just that (show them what is outdated) and got ridiculed, dismissed and unjustly punished for it!
In my opinion - it is one thing to ignore the later days Christian version of Jesus but completely different thing to ignore the Quranic version of Jesus (Isa ibn Maryam)!
@The OP:
So, even though you corrected your comment about "not allowed to enter a non-Jewish building of worship" to "not allowed to enter a building of Idol worship" - nevertheless I believe most Jews do keep their eyes closed when it comes to other faith systems. They are just not open!
And that is not a good thing IMO. Jesus was ignored due to that attitude. Attitude of "closemindedness" and refusal to accept any changes! IMO.
So, to answer your original question....
Jews were not open to accept any changes and that is why they ignored Jesus (a prophet sent by God). But now the modern Jews are ignoring Jesus because later days Christians totally misconstrued and misrepresented who Jesus really was and turned him into a god that he never claimed to be! IMO
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Eliana
Member
I am technically allowed but I despise Islam so I never would.
*staff Edit*
Ah yes! The university of Google!
Argumentum ad populum
In my opinion, Jesus tried to do just that (show them what is outdated) and got ridiculed, dismissed and unjustly punished for it!
In my opinion - it is one thing to ignore the later days Christian version of Jesus but completely different thing to ignore the Quranic version of Jesus (Isa ibn Maryam)!
Why? Because you're a Muslim and you happen to believe in the Quran? What is your evidence that your religion is any more valid then mine? Or the Christians? Or anyone else? Because you believe it is really, really hard? I think the Quran is total bunk but you and any Muslim are free to believe as you wish.
I am not interested in other faith systems... that is called Idolatry. G-d told us not to do that. I also did not ask why Jews don't believe in Jesus, I stated the main reasons we don't. There was form of punctuation in my opening post to imply it was any sort of question.
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Balthazzar
N. Germanic Descent
Is that a strawman? Weird, I thought it was something about a form of argument. I don't get it. What good does a picture of a strawman do in an argument? It looks like he's got his chest sticking out. "You want some of me!" "I have a stick!"
Grrrrr!
This guy has an argument, too.
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