Why learn about other faiths?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How would it be possible to learn about other cultures if one does NOT address the religion that ties them together? Because...every single culture I know of has had a religious aspect to it, almost always a huge influence.

Even (or perhaps especially) Japan.

I didn't bother to focus on Japanese religion at all and yet I got a smattering of it anyway.

Focusing on religion really isn't necessary. To the extent that religion is important to a culture, it will get expressed through other stuff anyway.

 

[dianaiad]

I didn't bother to focus on Japanese religion at all and yet I got a smattering of it anyway.

Focusing on religion really isn't necessary. To the extent that religion is important to a culture, it will get expressed through other stuff anyway.

Oh, I agree.

The problem is in whether getting that 'smattering" is considered valuable to the understanding of the culture. At least, that's what I got out of the poll question.

.............and am I seeing (or not seeing) things, or did someone change his/her vote from 'not at all' to something else? (grin)

 

[Trailblazer]

True, true.

I THINK, though, that I am reacting to the way the question was asked. "How valuable is it to learn of other faiths?"

For instance, I can think...and do think...that it would be extremely valuable to learn about the way the stock market works, or the way the old masters mixed tempura paints, or the different methods different cultures use to make pasta, or what modern medical science is doing with CAR T therapies for cancer.

I personally might not have time to learn all of these things, but by my choice I am saying that the things I choose not to learn are 'not valuable, ' at least to me.

..................and in terms of learning about the religions other people believe in, saying that learning about them is 'marginally' valuable, I'm saying that they don't matter as much as, say...mowing my lawn or washing the dishes or making a presentation to my colleagues about a proposed advertising campaign for dog food.

Now, those who do believe that learning about other people's religious beliefs is only marginally valuable are usually saying that they are too busy...

But people who post to religious debate forums that discuss other people's religious ideas probably shouldn't say they don't have the time to learn about them, or that it isn't valuable to them to learn about them.

Just sayin'.

I understand what you are saying but then one has to ask why these people are posting to religious forums. I mostly post to atheists and I like to talk about God, not religion per se. However, I usually end up talking about my religion because that is where the conversation leads when they ask about the evidence that God exists.

Mowing the lawn and washing dishes is not a higher priority. My husband used to mow the lawn but he stopped mowing it a couple of years ago so now it has just grown wild like the rest of our property which is covered in trees and bushes that have taken over the property. He does the dishes though.

We have no children but the 10 cats are a high priority, close up there with God. Luckily, my husband does most of the cat care so I can post on forums. I do miss them though and I need to spend more time with them.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In my observations, there are good and bad people in all faiths and in all religions. There is no one orientation of faith or religion that has a monopoly on good or bad people. What that means to me is something similar to "all roads lead to Rome". There are many paths that lead to the same central place. These various paths or roads are tuned to the needs of spiritual living and secular norms.

That’s my experience too. I see there's much to admire when viewing those of a different faiths I am led to the same inescapable conclusion. Peoples of all faiths have truth and virtue both within their religions and themselves. There is no single religion that is right that stands above all the others that are wrong.

If we divided people, in a cataloging way, as good people and bad people, only two universal religions would appear. Instead, we tend to merge good and evil, and then subjectively lump all as good, via membership in each of hundreds of religions. The simplicity of the former goes to the core of faith, while the complexity of the later stays on the surface. Again, this has to do with the needs of secular living, where good snd evil can have opposing definitions.

I think it is what we make of our lives including our beliefs that is so crucial to determining who we are.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You know, even though I use tribal religions in a negative way, like throwing people into volcanoes 'cause their god said so, I think it's important to say that tribal people all seem to have taken very good care of their people... other than the ones that got sacrificed. But, I'm sure their are many that didn't have human sacrifices in their beliefs. And those people had a religion that was a more complete and total part of everyday life in the community.

It’s relatively easy to appreciate how every primitive culture looks to the sun, moon, forest and water and attributes spirits. The are no atheist primitive cultures to my knowledge. If they existed they were an aberration. It’s not hard to appreciate tribalism, animal and human sacrifice, male domination, infanticide, slavery, and cannabilism were often part of these cultures. Evidence of all these practices is strong. There is a tendency with the complexity of modern life to romanticise and idealise a time when we lived much simpler lives amidst nature. But I doubt if the reality for many of these cultures was nearly as good as we imagine.

But then, back on the negative side, most of the religion was very mythical and filled with superstition. But I think that was part of why it worked. People were scared to break the taboos. Or, they were afraid evil spirits would get them if they went against the ways of their religion. Or, it would hurt the community.

Consider how the Teachings of Moses or Muhammad accelerated the moral and intellectual development of their peoples with improved standards of living. How these Teachings emphasised the Oneness of God and opposed paganism.

Because of science, I think, many people today lost their respect for religion..And see it as myth and superstition. Like Christians fearing that the devil is out to get them. Or, even like God is going to get them if they don't do what their religion says. Who believes that anymore? But, even more important, is how many religious people still feel 100% that those things are real? So, I think they are more likely to compromise the strict laws of their religion, because in some ways they don't fear God, or the devil, like they did in the past. Which is good, except with more people losing their religion, many are turning to selfish inclinations and not caring so much as to how they hurt others.

I think that’s a reasonable summary of what’s happening.

Bahá’u’lláh said:

The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 200

I believe the fear of God and His punishment is important but emphasise the potency of His Revelation to transform lives.

So now, with the Baha'i Faith, you can't scare people with an angry God that will punish people and cast them into hell. So will the Baha'i Faith succeed at getting people to do what's right, just because it is the right thing to do? The other problem is will they get Baha'is to believe all the laws are the right thing to do? 'Cause I know a few laws I'll probably never be able to abide by.

Baha’u’llah said of the Baha’is we are to be the quickerners of mankind, the yeast that levens the bread. It doesn’t matter if those we come into contact with become Baha’is or not. If through these conversations we are inspired and enabled to have a more world embracing vision then that is sufficient. I’m not going to convince anyone to become a Baha’i. God willing this thread is about appreciating the diversity and the essential Oneness of man’s religious experience.

What are the laws you feel you could never follow btw?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh, I agree.

The problem is in whether getting that 'smattering" is considered valuable to the understanding of the culture. At least, that's what I got out of the poll question.

My take on the OP was that it was asking about specifically studying religion. Personally, I don’t think it’s necessary.

For instance, if you learn about a particular culture’s cuisine, if it’s heavily influenced by the local religion’s dietary rules, you’ll pick this up along the way. However, just learning about the dietary rules won’t tell you what their food actually tastes like or how to make it.

.............and am I seeing (or not seeing) things, or did someone change his/her vote from 'not at all' to something else? (grin)

Since I never voted in the poll, my money is on "you're seeing things."

 

[dianaiad]

My take on the OP was that it was asking about specifically studying religion. Personally, I don’t think it’s necessary.

For instance, if you learn about a particular culture’s cuisine, if it’s heavily influenced by the local religion’s dietary rules, you’ll pick this up along the way. However, just learning about the dietary rules won’t tell you what their food actually tastes like or how to make it.


Since I never voted in the poll, my money is on "you're seeing things."

(grin)

Please pardon me if I don't see the relevance between cause and that effect, there.

 

[CG Didymus]

My experience during my 20s was considering and trying out different ideologies which I agree can be exhausting and even lead to a breakdown. A useful breakthrough for me came through reading a Buddhist monk who taught the goal when searching for truth is to initially glean just one spiritual truth that can be practically applied to life. Perhaps we should aim for just 1% wisdom! The value of this approach is working towards a better way of living is achievable today. Then as we come to recognise each day what works in our lives and what doesn’t the little steps become bigger steps.

If one religion helps you to become a better person then consider practicing that one religion. If not then why bother?

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 127-134

The Bible is filled with wars and disputes. And God condoned it. So what's up with that?

 

[CG Didymus]

It’s relatively easy to appreciate how every primitive culture looks to the sun, moon, forest and water and attributes spirits. The are no atheist primitive cultures to my knowledge. If they existed they were an aberration. It’s not hard to appreciate tribalism, animal and human sacrifice, male domination, infanticide, slavery, and cannabilism were often part of these cultures. Evidence of all these practices is strong. There is a tendency with the complexity of modern life to romanticise and idealise a time when we lived much simpler lives amidst nature. But I doubt if the reality for many of these cultures was nearly as good as we imagine.



Consider how the Teachings of Moses or Muhammad accelerated the moral and intellectual development of their peoples with improved standards of living. How these Teachings emphasised the Oneness of God and opposed paganism.



I think that’s a reasonable summary of what’s happening.

Bahá’u’lláh said:

The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 200

I believe the fear of God and His punishment is important but emphasise the potency of His Revelation to transform lives.



Baha’u’llah said of the Baha’is we are to be the quickerners of mankind, the yeast that levens the bread. It doesn’t matter if those we come into contact with become Baha’is or not. If through these conversations we are inspired and enabled to have a more world embracing vision then that is sufficient. I’m not going to convince anyone to become a Baha’i. God willing this thread is about appreciating the diversity and the essential Oneness of man’s religious experience.

What are the laws you feel you could never follow btw?

Any laws that forbid a behavior are going to be hard if not impossible to get everyone to obey... Including me. Jesus is supposed to have said that to look at a woman with lust is the same as committing adultery with her. Who lives like that? And I think it leads to sexual repression in a lot of people rather than becoming more spiritual. And the Baha'i laws are just as strict.

I very rarely drink alcoholic beverages, maybe a sip of wine. But most everybody I know drinks beer or wine or a mixed drink. And even Jesus drank wine. So now God changes his mind again on what his laws are? And, again, I don't see these laws working.

 

[Trailblazer]

Any laws that forbid a behavior are going to be hard if not impossible to get everyone to obey... Including me. Jesus is supposed to have said that to look at a woman with lust is the same as committing adultery with her. Who lives like that? And I think it leads to sexual repression in a lot of people rather than becoming more spiritual. And the Baha'i laws are just as strict.

I very rarely drink alcoholic beverages, maybe a sip of wine. But most everybody I know drinks beer or wine or a mixed drink. And even Jesus drank wine. So now God changes his mind again on what his laws are? And, again, I don't see these laws working.

Pardon the interruption, but maybe the question you should be asking is why people cannot give up what they WANT for what God wants for them and realize God knows more about what is good for them than they know, since God is All-Knowing and All-Wise.

People CAN give that stuff up if they want to. Life for most people is all about what they want, and it is all about the physical pleasures and the material world. These are here today, gone tomorrow. By contrast, anything that is related to the mind or to helping other people is something that is eternal because it goes with us to the next world. In essence, we are a soul, not a physical body. The material world is just an illusion that people imagine to be real. After we die, we will realize it was not important at all, but I already know because of what Baha'u'llah wrote. I do not spend any more time than I have to on what is not important in the eyes of God. That would be illogical not to mention foolish.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329
​

I live on the Baha'u'llah channel. I now resume you to regular programming.

 

[Vinayaka]

How can you truly learn another's religion without practicing it? Yes, you can learn as much intellectual stuff as you can stuff into your brain, but true learning, in most religions, includes experience, feeling, camaraderie with others, and so much more.

How can you truly learn about another's faith when all you have for eyes is a pre-existing (your own faith, or paradigm) lens to look through? All learning is biased from that alone.

 

[Dawnofhope]

How can you truly learn another's religion without practicing it? Yes, you can learn as much intellectual stuff as you can stuff into your brain, but true learning, in most religions, includes experience, feeling, camaraderie with others, and so much more.

How can you truly learn about another's faith when all you have for eyes is a pre-existing (your own faith, or paradigm) lens to look through? All learning is biased from that alone.

For what its worth, I think you have an excellent point. For me an essential part of learning about another faith is getting to know the people who are practicising their faith and hearing what they have to say about it. However I do believe its possible for us to have a reasonable idea of the Faith of another. We share the same humanity and share the earths resources.

 

[Vinayaka]

For what its worth, I think you have an excellent point. For me an essential part of learning about another faith is getting to know the people who are practicising their faith and hearing what they have to say about it. However I do believe its possible for us to have a reasonable idea of the Faith of another. We share the same humanity and share the earths resources.

Depends how you define 'reasonable' I guess. From my POV, the claim of a 'reasonable' understanding without experience is exaggeration. I don't at all have a reasonable understanding of your faith. It makes no sense to me at all, and from the discussions I've had with yourself, and other members of your faith, and how most think I'm very unreasonable, I think we'd agree on this.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Any laws that forbid a behavior are going to be hard if not impossible to get everyone to obey... Including me. Jesus is supposed to have said that to look at a woman with lust is the same as committing adultery with her. Who lives like that? And I think it leads to sexual repression in a lot of people rather than becoming more spiritual. And the Baha'i laws are just as strict.

I very rarely drink alcoholic beverages, maybe a sip of wine. But most everybody I know drinks beer or wine or a mixed drink. And even Jesus drank wine. So now God changes his mind again on what his laws are? And, again, I don't see these laws working.

We've been talking to each over now for over 1 1/2 years. Although occasionally we may irritate each other, I really appreciate your friendship with the Baha'is. You are always friendly, courteous and respectful. You often challange us in ways we need to be challenged. The Baha'is needs 'friends of the faith' as any religion does and you are truly that.

I have a sense that we are probably not too different as people when it comes down to it. The starting point for becoming a Baha'i is different for each person. The laws you describe are something many of us struggle with to some degree. You do not have to be a saint to become a Baha'i and I'm certainly not a saint after being a Baha'i for nearly 30 years. For me reading the writings morning and noon and saying the obligatory prayer was the starting point. Much later I felt that I wanted to be a better Baha'i and decided to do something about it. Most of Baha'i law is between ouselves and God anyhow. Obviously if a Baha'i leaves their wife and shacks up with their girlfriend, the assembly may get involved. Regardless, that person is still a Baha'i. Just an imperfect one like the rest of us.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Depends how you define 'reasonable' I guess. From my POV, the claim of a 'reasonable' understanding without experience is exaggeration. I don't at all have a reasonable understanding of your faith. It makes no sense to me at all, and from the discussions I've had with yourself, and other members of your faith, and how most think I'm very unreasonable, I think we'd agree on this.

I think you are a reasonable person and a decent human being and I like you. I do see you getting quite irritated with Baha'is and the Baha'i Faith at times in ways that I wonder are healthy for you. That being said I always enjoy talking to you.

CG has had quite a bit of social interaction with Baha'is in the real world. I wonder if it would be helpful for you to talk to a Baha'i in person or even Skype. Nothing to do with one person trying to convert the other. Just a friendly chat about life.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think you are a reasonable person and a decent human being and I like you. I do see you getting quite irritated with Baha'is and the Baha'i Faith at times in ways that I wonder are healthy for you. That being said I always enjoy talking to you.

CG has had quite a bit of social interaction with Baha'is in the real world. I wonder if it would be helpful for you to talk to a Baha'i in person or even Skype. Nothing to do with one person trying to convert the other. Just a friendly chat about life.

Wow ... "in ways that are healthy for me " So now you take the training in condescending one step further and play doctor/psychologist? This is just an idle pastime for me. It's entertainment.

Besides all that, how about offering your counseling services up for some of your fellow Baha'is that seem to have something rather close to God delusion. Surely you know that that is a real diagnosed problem.

 

[Trailblazer]

some of your fellow Baha'is that seem to have something rather close to God delusion. Surely you know that that is a real diagnosed problem.

What is God delusion, the delusion that God exists?
I thought you believed in God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Wow ... "in ways that are healthy for me " So now you take the training in condescending one step further and play doctor/psychologist? This is just an idle pastime for me. It's entertainment.

Talk about taking a friendly offer and turning it into something its not. I just thought you might like to have a chat face to face.

Besides all that, how about offering your counseling services up for some of your fellow Baha'is that seem to have something rather close to God delusion. Surely you know that that is a real diagnosed problem.

I don't do counselling outside of when I'm doctor. I like to switch off and relax outside of work hours.

If psychiatrists considered everyone who believes in God deluded, over half the world's population would be diagnosed with a psychotic illness.

 

[Vinayaka]

Talk about taking a friendly offer and turning it into something its not. I just thought you might like to have a chat face to face.



I don't do counselling outside of when I'm doctor. I like to switch off and relax outside of work hours.

If psychiatrists considered everyone who believes in God deluded, over half the world's population would be diagnosed with a psychotic illness.

No, I meant people who think they ARE God, a subset of grandiose delusion. I'm saying that because Baha'is often misinterpret the idea of infallibilty, to practically include themselves, it's getting dangerously close to considering yourself God. The ego thing again. Certainly it's grandiose delusion, about the impact your faith has on this planet. Gross over-exaggeration.

Not all, but some. I think it might be well advised to offer a talk with them. Jim tried, I think.

 

[Vinayaka]

What is God delusion, the delusion that God exists?
I thought you believed in God.

See my explanation to Adrian.

But yes, atheists do think the belief in God is a delusion. One guy wrote a book on it. But that's another version altogether.

Edited to add ... God complex - Wikipedia

Gee, that sounds familiar, no?