why must God be good?

[Alien826]

Time to introduce "Divine Command Theory" I think. I'm describing it, not agreeing to it.

It goes like this. God is all powerful. If God says loving others is "good" then it is good. If God says rape and torture are "good' then those things are good.

 

[YoursTrue]

The idea that he is an 'owner' of the world for any time at all would be an opinion. To many, he isn't relevant(or even known).

I understand that. But to a large extent, when Jesus spoke with Satan in the wilderness, Satan offered him all the kingdoms of this world if Jesus would do just one act of worship to him. Jesus did not argue with him telling him he could not give him the kingdoms of this world but told him to get away from him. Since Jesus told his disciples to pray what is known as the "Our Father" prayer, he instructed them to pray for God's kingdom (government) to come to the earth. This tells us that the government by God was not on the earth at that time, but as I read the Bible, it shows it is foretold that things will eventually change for good on this earth.

 

[Eddi]

Time to introduce "Divine Command Theory" I think. I'm describing it, not agreeing to it.

It goes like this. God is all powerful. If God says loving others is "good" then it is good. If God says rape and torture are "good' then those things are good.

Wow, it's scary that someone people actually believe that

I did not know that was a thing

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

Why exactly do people insist that an essential characteristic of God is goodness?

If we're talking about the God of the bible then he doesn't seem all that good to me

I think that at the very best he is morally inconsistent

When talking about God or Gods, what does goodness even mean?

I'd say it has a lot to do with believing in something greater than yourself.
When you judge God, it means you have more faith in your own judgment than what is considered to be all-knowing and all-wise by the believer; something that is superior to you and/or your peers and/or society.

It is considered good because when you do it "right", you're perfectly synchronized with the cosmos, which should result in a harmonious peace of mind; you live your life in your element.

You used to believe in God and His goodness yourself if I recall correctly.
If so, I'm curious what your answer to your own question would be.

 

[PureX]

Why exactly do people insist that an essential characteristic of God is goodness?

If we're talking about the God of the bible then he doesn't seem all that good to me

I think that at the very best he is morally inconsistent

When talking about God or Gods, what does goodness even mean?

Well, that's the question, isn't it? How do we mere humans claim the right to stand in judgment of a God that we can't possibly comprehend?

 

[Eddi]

You used to believe in God and His goodness yourself if I recall correctly.
If so, I'm curious what your answer to your own question would be.

I no longer believe in such a thing

Not in the Abrahamic way anyway

I am much happier now

 

[Eddi]

Well, that's the question, isn't it? How do we mere humans claim the right to stand in judgment of a God that we can't possibly comprehend?

So just because it is veiled in mystery it would be wrong to try and gage whether or not it is good????

Which is a very important question that very much demands enquiry

If it is real we need to be sure that it is good we shouldn't just take its supposed word for it, that would be negligent and foolish to the extreme

And I for one am no "mere" human, I don't know about you.......

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

I no longer believe in such a thing

Not in the Abrahamic way anyway

I am much happier now

You weren't always like this though.
I'm not trying to persuade you to change your mind.
I'm trying to encourage you to play "devil's advocate" and see for yourself why, because it can help broaden your view.
Especially since you've had some first hand experience of it, I think you can gain a lot of insight from your past, even though it may not help you understand the views of all believers of similar stock.

 

[PureX]

So just because it is veiled in mystery it would be wrong to try and gage whether or not it is good????

Not wrong. Just silly.

Which is a very important question that very much demands enquiry

Is it? Why? What do we gain by passing moral judgments on a God that we can't even comprehend?

 

[Eddi]

Not wrong. Just silly.

Is it? Why? What do we gain by passing moral judgments on a God that we can't even comprehend?

We need to determine whether or not it is good and/or reasonable

We need to see whether it is friendly or wicked

Even if we cannot comprehend how it exists I think it is both possible and necessary to cast moral judgement on it and not to just blindly take it at its word

That would be naive, foolish in the extreme to assume it is good just because it is big and powerful and because it would be good if it was good and because it says it is good........

 

[Erebus]

Idk about other folks. But I wonder about a malevolent God all the time. It gives me the creeps. A malevolent God is a scary thought.

You aren't alone in that. The idea of the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe being genuinely evil is perhaps the ultimate horror scenario. It renders our existence utterly hopeless. Better not to dwell on it I suppose!

That probably goes some way to explaining why believers in an omnipotent, omniscient God typically view him as either good or indifferent. The alternative is horrific.

 

[LuisDantas]

Wow, it's scary that someone people actually believe that

I did not know that was a thing

It is. Despite having been denounced since, at least, The Dialogues of Plato.

Euthyphro - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, that's the question, isn't it? How do we mere humans claim the right to stand in judgment of a God that we can't possibly comprehend?

Pretty much in any way that happens to be conceivable.

Have you perceived and considered the flip side of your question? It is IMO unbeatable.

What good is the judgment of a god that we presume to be beyond understanding to guide, inspire or motivate human values and behavior?

The obvious answer is "no good whatsoever".

Unconfortable as some apparently feel by that, the end result is that we must exercise our discernment and moral judgement. Expectations of divine guidance are akin to hopes of the tail waving the dog.

 

[LuisDantas]

Is it? Why? What do we gain by passing moral judgments on a God that we can't even comprehend?

Intellectual honesty and at the very least the necessary first steps towards eventual ethical wisdom, for starters.

Atheism might be a frequent end result as well, but it is really a very minor thing by comparison and won't come for everyone anyway.

 

[PureX]

We need to determine whether or not it is good and/or reasonable

You need to learn to finish your sentences. ... "Good or reasonable" according to whom, and by what standard? And if we recognize that "God" is a mystery, how can we determine any of this? If "God" IS the standard, how can God not meet the standard? See what I mean?

We need to see whether it is friendly or wicked

God is whatever we presume God to be because God is an idea in our heads, at least to us. So I don't see that any of this matters. If we are seeing God as 'bad', all we have to do is change the way we imagine God to be in our minds, to being 'good'. Done and dusted. Problem solved.

Even if we cannot comprehend how it exists I think it is both possible and necessary to cast moral judgement on it and not to just blindly take it at its word

At what "word"? God isn't giving us any words that we are not choosing to pretend God to have given us. And we can just as easily pretend God didn't give them if we don't like them. You seem to be proposing that we create an evil God for ourselves, and then blame God of being evil. And that's just silly. Why do any of that?

That would be naive, foolish in the extreme to assume it is good just because it is big and powerful and because it would be good if it was good and because it says it is good........

We can presume anything we want to, because we can't know otherwise. So why presume God is a morel problem when we can just as easily and justifiably presume that God is not a moral problem? It makes no sense.

 

[PureX]

What good is the judgment of a god that we presume to be beyond understanding to guide, inspire or motivate human values and behavior?

Exactly. The "good" comes from within us, through "God", and then back to us. We endow God with what we think are the best ideals we ca imagine, and then we allow that God to remind us, and cajole us, and teach us, and thereby help us to aspire to those ideals.

So why on Earth would we deliberately define God as ideally/morally "bad"? Unless we want to aspire to being worse than we already are?

 

[Eddi]

You need to learn to finish your sentences. ... "Good or reasonable" according to whom, and by what standard? And if we recognize that "God" is a mystery, how can we determine any of this? If "God" IS the standard, how can God not meet the standard? See what I mean?

God is whatever we presume God to be because God is an idea in our heads, at least to us. So I don't see that any of this matters. If we are seeing God as 'bad', all we have to do is change the way we imagine God to be in our minds, to being 'good'. Done and dusted. Problem solved.

At what "word"? God isn't giving us any words that we are not choosing to pretend God to have given us. And we can just as easily pretend God didn't give them if we don't like them. You seem to be proposing that we create an evil God for ourselves, and then blame God of being evil. And that's just silly. Why do any of that?

We can presume anything we want to, because we can't know otherwise. So why presume God is a morel problem when we can just as easily and justifiably presume that God is not a moral problem? It makes no sense.

I will reply to all this later

Right now I am on my phone so can't write as easily

 

[PureX]

Intellectual honesty and at the very least the necessary first steps towards eventual ethical wisdom, for starters.

If the God we were handed is not the God we consider ideal, then all we have to do is drop it, and re-imagine it as the ideal. Done. Problem solved. And we now have an ideal God to act as a moral and ethical beacon for us that reflects everything we believe to be ethically and morally good and true.

Atheism might be a frequent end result as well, but it is really a very minor thing by comparison and won't come for everyone anyway.

Atheism is just the foolish disregard of an important cognitive mechanism because the atheist hasn't bothered to try and understand it for what it is or what it could do for him. He prefers, instead, to keep it as an intellectual boogeyman that he imagines himself to have triumphed over. It titillates the ego but does little else.

 

[LuisDantas]

Exactly. The "good" comes from within us, through "God", and then back to us. We endow God with what we think are the best ideals we ca imagine, and then we allow that God to remind us, and cajole us, and teach us, and thereby help us to aspire to those ideals.

Is that so?

Maybe you can tell that god of yours that he really ought to put his papers in order and begin punching the card every once in a while, then?

So why on Earth would we deliberately define God as ideally/morally "bad"? Unless we want to aspire to being worse than we already are?

It is just silly, as well as dangerous, to deliberately fail to notice when god-conceptions are dysfunctional or worse.

 

[LuisDantas]

If the God we were handed is not the God we consider ideal, then all we have to do is drop it, and re-imagine it as the ideal. Done. Problem solved.

Congratulations. You have just talked yourself into Holy Pastafarianism. Praise be Pasta!

The Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't necessarily good either, but it does refuse to pressure people into ethically dubious situations and stances.

And we now have an ideal God to act as a moral and ethical beacon for us that reflects everything we believe to be ethically and morally good and true.

Which is the insistence in creating a tail to wave the dog that I mentioned a few posts above.

Is there even a point to that?

Atheism is just the foolish disregard of an important cognitive mechanism because the atheist hasn't bothered to try and understand it for what it is or what it could do for him. He prefers, instead, to keep it as an intellectual boogeyman that he imagines himself to have triumphed over. It titillates the ego but does little else.

Guess what? You are talking of your odd, hard to follow prejudices as if truisms they were.

Are they convincing when presented that way? No.