Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an? Why is language that important?

[firedragon]

Ah, one-liners.

Can you give me an example of the verse you are referring to as having different interpretations, and the analysis that disagrees with the OP?

 

[sun rise]

Even the translations done by native Arabic speakers differ from one to the other. Yet they all know Arabic. They all know enough about the Koran to believe they can translate it faithfully.

If all those things are true, it belies "one must know Arabic to know the Qur’an". It seems no one can know the Koran.

Did they equally know Quranic Arabic?

And there are bilingual people who are very fluid in two languages that put their own ideas into what they're translating. Believing one can be faithful and actually being faithful are two separate things.

And of course, some things especially with poetry are difficult to translate.

One example Wikipedia says this about a German word: Gemütlichkeit is a German-language word used to convey the idea of a state or feeling of warmth, friendliness,[1] and good cheer. Other qualities encompassed by the term include coziness, peace of mind, and a sense of belonging and well-being springing from social acceptance.

When I studied German, the professor translated that word as the feeling one gets when smoking a pipe, sitting in front of a fire with one's dog beside the comfortable recliner.

Google says the word means geniality; friendliness.

That's what I'm thinking of when I am conscious of "hard to translate".

 

[Fool]

Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an? Why is language that important?

I am writing this to create some awareness because a lot of people misunderstand this statement that Muslims make about the language of Arabic and the Qur’an. I don’t advocate the idea that knowing Arabic is fundamental, but its important. At least a person must have the ability to empathise with the language in order to open mindedly understand how the language speaks.

I will give an example from a very famous verse in the Qur’an a lot of people intentionally misrepresent with no effort to empathise with the language.

The verse 78:33 speaks of companions with swelling breasts. When you read the translation it looks perverse. But reading it in Arabic gives a completely different picture and the only proper way to translate it is as “Swelling Breasts”. The interpretation is very different.

The word “Kawaib” in Arabic means “ripe”. It’s the age of womanhood where a girl is grown up. The phrase does not indicate large breasts as an English reader would read it. This simply signifies the age.

An example from an Asian language would be the word “Lamissi”. Lamissi is a word used to address a grown girl of maritable age. But the real meaning of the word is “Lama Issi” where “Lama” means “breast” and issi means lifted or grown. This has no perverse connotation whatsoever. It is a simple word to indicate an age. Just like the word “Illan Dhariya”. Illan means “to ask or require”. Dhariya means “girl”. So Illan Dhariya means “asking for a girl or woman”. This is referring to a young man of maritable age. He is not a teen anymore but a young man. But when you translate the word into English it seems ridiculous as if he is a pervert looking for women.

This is the reason one must develop the ability to empathise with a language. Those who don’t even try to empathise with a language have an agenda, and others who listen to these people will go home with a huge misunderstanding.

Another example would be to say seven in Arabic. Yes it means “seven” when you say “Saba” (with an ain) but what is communicated is not the number seven. Lets say we say “I done this dozens of times” it means someone has done it many times. I would say “buy a dozen” I am not really saying to buy exactly 12 in number but just to get a bunch. Not too much, not one or two, but enough. Like when you say “I told you a million times” I am not saying I exactly said this same thing 1,000,000 times but just that I have said it many times. But the translation would read “seven”. If you don’t translate it that way it seems dishonest.

There are millions of examples like this, and with that statement I don’t mean exactly 1,000,000, I simply mean there are many.

I would like to see views of respectable members and of course any clarification is welcome.

Peace.

waxing poetically is nice to a point but love is greatest. languages arise and fall but love is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an? Why is language that important?

I am writing this to create some awareness because a lot of people misunderstand this statement that Muslims make about the language of Arabic and the Qur’an. I don’t advocate the idea that knowing Arabic is fundamental, but its important. At least a person must have the ability to empathise with the language in order to open mindedly understand how the language speaks.

I will give an example from a very famous verse in the Qur’an a lot of people intentionally misrepresent with no effort to empathise with the language.

The verse 78:33 speaks of companions with swelling breasts. When you read the translation it looks perverse. But reading it in Arabic gives a completely different picture and the only proper way to translate it is as “Swelling Breasts”. The interpretation is very different.

The word “Kawaib” in Arabic means “ripe”. It’s the age of womanhood where a girl is grown up. The phrase does not indicate large breasts as an English reader would read it. This simply signifies the age.

An example from an Asian language would be the word “Lamissi”. Lamissi is a word used to address a grown girl of maritable age. But the real meaning of the word is “Lama Issi” where “Lama” means “breast” and issi means lifted or grown. This has no perverse connotation whatsoever. It is a simple word to indicate an age. Just like the word “Illan Dhariya”. Illan means “to ask or require”. Dhariya means “girl”. So Illan Dhariya means “asking for a girl or woman”. This is referring to a young man of maritable age. He is not a teen anymore but a young man. But when you translate the word into English it seems ridiculous as if he is a pervert looking for women.

This is the reason one must develop the ability to empathise with a language. Those who don’t even try to empathise with a language have an agenda, and others who listen to these people will go home with a huge misunderstanding.

Another example would be to say seven in Arabic. Yes it means “seven” when you say “Saba” (with an ain) but what is communicated is not the number seven. Lets say we say “I done this dozens of times” it means someone has done it many times. I would say “buy a dozen” I am not really saying to buy exactly 12 in number but just to get a bunch. Not too much, not one or two, but enough. Like when you say “I told you a million times” I am not saying I exactly said this same thing 1,000,000 times but just that I have said it many times. But the translation would read “seven”. If you don’t translate it that way it seems dishonest.

There are millions of examples like this, and with that statement I don’t mean exactly 1,000,000, I simply mean there are many.

I would like to see views of respectable members and of course any clarification is welcome.

Peace.

What did Prophet or Quran instruct? Did He say translate the Quran to other languages? Or learn Arabic?

 

[ecco]

Can you give me an example of the verse you are referring to as having different interpretations, and the analysis that disagrees with the OP?

It seems even English is subject to misinterpretation. Are you referring to the general comment I made...

Even the translations done by native Arabic speakers differ from one to the other. Yet they all know Arabic. They all know enough about the Koran to believe they can translate it faithfully.

If all those things are true, it belies "one must know Arabic to know the Qur’an". It seems no one can know the Koran.

...or something else?

As far as disagreement with your OP...

Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an?

I pointed out that native Arabic speakers provide different translations of the same document and some of the reasons that occurs, including, but not limited to the fact that the language has changed and evolved over the years.

Therefore, it seems no one can know the Koran.

I would like to see views of respectable members and of course any clarification is welcome.

Here we have another example of the problem with knowing the meaning of the written word.

Who decides who is and who is not a respectable member? What do you even mean by respectable? If one is considered respectable by some members of the community but not by others, are his views the ones you like to see or must he be considered to be respectable by everyone? How would you know if someone is considered respectable? How would he know?

 

[ecco]

Did they equally know Quranic Arabic?

And there are bilingual people who are very fluid in two languages that put their own ideas into what they're translating. Believing one can be faithful and actually being faithful are two separate things.

And of course, some things especially with poetry are difficult to translate.

That's my point. Assume; ten people are raised bilingually in Arabic and English and produce ten different translations of the Koran...
Does it matter if they are Muslims or Christians or atheists or Sunnis or Shiite?
Does it matter which local Arabic and English dialect they were raised with?
Does it matter if they have a, perhaps even subconscious, agenda?

The bottom line is the translations will all be different. So to say one must know Arabic to know the Qur’an is somewhat specious. People who know Arabic produce different interpretations.

There are brilliant Constitutional lawyers who disagree on elements of the Constitution. They argue over the placement of a comma in the Second Amendment and how it alters the "intent" of the writers.


My main argument with "one must know Arabic to know the Qur’an" is that it has been used by Muslim apologists to criticize people who point out the various problems in the Koran. They argue that if we Westerners were able to read the Koran as a native Arabic speaker can, we would know that they were not problems with the Koran but problems with our misinterpretation. Even when our interpretation is based on the translations done by native Arabic speakers.

One example Wikipedia says this about a German word: Gemütlichkeit is a German-language word used to convey the idea of a state or feeling of warmth, friendliness...

Every English word has multiple definitions.

• I have faith in God
• I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow

There are two completely different definitions/meanings of the word "faith". The word "faith" is often intentionally misused by those with a religious agenda.

 

[firedragon]

It seems even English is subject to misinterpretation. Are you referring to the general comment I made...

No. The Quran. Specific brother, not general.

I pointed out that native Arabic speakers provide different translations of the same document and some of the reasons that occurs, including, but not limited to the fact that the language has changed and evolved over the years.

Therefore, it seems no one can know the Koran.

I was not speaking of native arabic speaker. I spoke of arabic knowledge for general reading. And since language evolves, that is the reason knowledge in the Fusha At Thurath is essential in translating the Quran. And you missed the whole point again, but Im not gonna state it repeatedly.

Anyway, I have asked you for the example of the verse that you are referring to and how that opposes the OP. Your comments are valid, but too general and nothing specific and it seems like you are intending to brush off with comments of personal effect rather than making a good analysis. So please respond reasonably with specific details, and then it will be good. Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

Here we have another example of the problem with knowing the meaning of the written word.

Who decides who is and who is not a respectable member? What do you even mean by respectable? If one is considered respectable by some members of the community but not by others, are his views the ones you like to see or must he be considered to be respectable by everyone? How would you know if someone is considered respectable? How would he know?

Maybe you think you are respectable and others are not, or maybe you think some are respectable and others are not. Because you view this with your anecdotal lens you see this sentence this way.

This is the problem of magnifying the ant and showing it like an elephant when the real question lies on the body.

 

[ecco]

Specific brother

Why do you refer to me as "brother"? I a not your brother. I have no desire to be your brother.

Anyway, I have asked you for the example of the verse that you are referring to and how that opposes the OP. Your comments are valid, but too general and nothing specific and it seems like you are intending to brush off with comments of personal effect rather than making a good analysis.

Since you keep asking me for a specific verse, it is clear you do not understand my comments.

I was not speaking of native arabic speaker. I spoke of arabic knowledge for general reading.

I referred to native Arabic speakers because they would, all other things being equal, have a better understanding of Arabic than people with a knowledge good enough for general reading. Yet not even these people can agree on the meaning of the verses in the Koran. The results being different translations.

If people with a knowledge of Arabic just good enough for general reading were to produce translations, and perhaps some have, those translations would not be good as those from native speakers.

 

[ecco]

Previously...

Here we have another example of the problem with knowing the meaning of the written word.

Who decides who is and who is not a respectable member? What do you even mean by respectable? If one is considered respectable by some members of the community but not by others, are his views the ones you like to see or must he be considered to be respectable by everyone? How would you know if someone is considered respectable? How would he know?

Maybe you think you are respectable and others are not, or maybe you think some are respectable and others are not. Because you view this with your anecdotal lens you see this sentence this way.

This is the problem of magnifying the ant and showing it like an elephant when the real question lies on the body.

Did you deflect because you were unable to answer any of the questions I raised?

As I wrote to sun rise...

My main argument with "one must know Arabic to know the Qur’an" is that it has been used by Muslim apologists to criticize people who point out the various problems in the Koran. They argue that if we Westerners were able to read the Koran as a native Arabic speaker can, we would know that they were not problems with the Koran but problems with our misinterpretation. Even when our interpretation is based on the translations done by native Arabic speakers.

 

[firedragon]

Why do you refer to me as "brother"? I a not your brother. I have no desire to be your brother.

Because you are human. Yes, there are some people who have the issue of thinking "oh he is calling me brother" since they are some superior creatures.

Anyway, see this is a public forum and if you think I can remember all the names and know who has that superiority complex you are sadly mistaken.

Have a great day. Ciao.

 

[firedragon]

Did you deflect because you were unable to answer any of the questions I raised?

Too lame.

 

[danieldemol]

What did Prophet or Quran instruct? Did He say translate the Quran to other languages? Or learn Arabic?

Perhaps this question got lost. Or maybe Muhammad never considered the problem of non Arab speakers at all so no one really knows.

 

[firedragon]

Perhaps this question got lost. Or maybe Muhammad never considered the problem of non Arab speakers at all so no one really knows.

Yeah. Ive heard that most nonsensical theory of "Muhammed didn't consider the non-arab speakers". Yep, he should consider everyone in the world and write in a 7000 languages. Great idea.

 

[firedragon]

What did Prophet or Quran instruct? Did He say translate the Quran to other languages? Or learn Arabic?

Do you really expect the book to say whether to translate or to learn arabic? This is the same as Dan asking why the Bible doesn't have a cure for COVID 19 or the Quran doesn't have detailed descriptions about a virus and its habitat.

 

[ecco]

Anyway, see this is a public forum and if you think I can remember all the names and know who has that superiority complex you are sadly mistaken.

Yeah. I'll probably forget that about you too until I read your next post.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you really expect the book to say whether to translate or to learn arabic? This is the same as Dan asking why the Bible doesn't have a cure for COVID 19 or the Quran doesn't have detailed descriptions about a virus and its habitat.

I don't know. But, if Quran is from God, and He wants non-Arab follow it as a guidance I don't know why wouldn't God advise on translation of His holy Book.
I think possibly there would be a Hadith at least.
I don't want to derail the thread, but, Bahaullah encouraged scholars to translate His scriptures, so, maybe that is where my expectation comes from regarding Quranic revelation.

 

[firedragon]

I don't know. But, if Quran is from God, and He wants non-Arab follow it as a guidance I don't know why wouldn't God advise on translation of His holy Book.
I think possibly there would be a Hadith at least.
I don't want to derail the thread, but, Bahaullah encouraged scholars to translate His scriptures, so, maybe that is where my expectation comes from regarding Quranic revelation.

Great. Thanks.

 

[columbus]

Yeah. Ive heard that most nonsensical theory of "Muhammed didn't consider the non-arab speakers". Yep, he should consider everyone in the world and write in a 7000 languages. Great idea.

I don't see it as nonsensical at all.

Muhammad was a fallible human and very powerful in his culture. Unsurprisingly, it wouldn't occur to him that the culture he dominated was only one small part of the human race. I understand that. As long as we all agree that the Quran is a piece of human literature, written and edited by fallible humans, this makes perfect sense.

But Muslims insist that isn't true. That the Quran is God's final Message, containing what humans need to know, perfect and eternal. Rational standards for that are stupendously higher. If God cared about humans understanding the Message of the Quran, then the rational way of doing so wouldn't be a batch of ancient Arabic poetry that the vast majority of humans cannot understand, even when translated into Chinese or English or Cherokee or Zulu.


If the Quran were from God, it wouldn't be such an exclusive message. The idea that God can't do any better at communicating than a 7th century Arabic warlord can is solid evidence to me that the Quran is entirely human, nothing to do with The Creator.
Tom

 

[firedragon]

I don't see it as nonsensical at all.

Muhammad was a fallible human and very powerful in his culture. Unsurprisingly, it wouldn't occur to him that the culture he dominated was only one small part of the human race. I understand that. As long as we all agree that the Quran is a piece of human literature, written and edited by fallible humans, this makes perfect sense.

But Muslims insist that isn't true. That the Quran is God's final Message, containing what humans need to know, perfect and eternal. Rational standards for that are stupendously higher. If God cared about humans understanding the Message of the Quran, then the rational way of doing so wouldn't be a batch of ancient Arabic poetry that the vast majority of humans cannot understand, even when translated into Chinese or English or Cherokee or Zulu.


If the Quran were from God, it wouldn't be such an exclusive message. The idea that God can't do any better at communicating than a 7th century Arabic warlord can is solid evidence to me that the Quran is entirely human, nothing to do with The Creator.
Tom

It is nonsensical. Again as I said, "Yep, he should consider everyone in the world and write in a 7000 languages. Great idea."