Why no mention of a fiery Hell in the Old Testament?

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but in answer to your question I would look at the reply and research it to see what I could find.

That did not appear to be at all the case, but thanks for the answer.

 

[David1967]

That did not appear to be at all the case, but thanks for the answer.

Did I offend you somehow?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Did I offend you somehow?

Of course not.

 

[David1967]

Of course not.

That's good to know as I certainly would never do so intentionally. Have a nice day

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's good to know as I certainly would never do so intentionally. Have a nice day

L'shalom.

 

[Akivah]

Judaism does not have the concept of hell as eternal torment (Jews can correct me if I am wrong). Judaism is MUCH older than Christianity. But this has nothing to do with "hell" because the theme of good vs. evil, reward and punishment, is found on every populated continent on the planet, and dates back thousands of years. It is a human nature thing.

Correct, there is no concept of a place of eternal punishment in Judaism.

Actually, there is very little mention of the afterlife in the Hebrew bible. This is because our religion and bible focus on actions that we are able to make in our lifetimes. Once we get to the afterlife, our choices are over.

 

[Akivah]

As someone raised in a very Fundamentalist Christian denomination that preached more about Hell fire than Heaven, and more wrath of God than love and compassion of God, ...

That sounds like a sad childhood. Did it make you depressed and afraid all the time?

 

[David1967]

That sounds like a sad childhood. Did it make you depressed and afraid all the time?

Not depressed, my family is very good. But the teaching and those revival preachers traumatized me as a young child. I actually thought God threw children into Hell.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This might be of interest.

 

[David1967]

Thanks for the link.UOTE="Jayhawker Soule, post: 4456953, member: 264"]This might be of interest.[/QUOTE]
Th

 

[Hawkins]

As someone raised in a very Fundamentalist Christian denomination that preached more about Hell fire than Heaven, and more wrath of God than love and compassion of God, I was always curious why such a terrible place was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

It happened that the Levites were in power all the times, and that they chose to embrace only the written Law. The end result is that the Sadducees in power may reject when other schools of thoughts going beyond a certain limit. The bottom line for the Sadducees is that they believe in no hell, no angel, no immortal soul. Writings (such as the book of Enoch) may not go pass in the Sanhedrin if they go far across this bottom line.

 

[David1967]

It happened that the Levites were in power all the times, and that they chose to embrace only the written Law. The end result is that the Sadducees in power may reject when other schools of thoughts going beyond a certain limit. The bottom line for the Sadducees is that they believe in no hell, no angel, no immortal soul. Writings (such as the book of Enoch) may not go pass in the Sanhedrin if they go far across this bottom line.

I remember as a child a Sunday School Teacher saying how the Sadducees didn't believe in heaven and that was why they were Sadd - U - Cee.

 

[john landes]

The ancient Israelites believed that heaven was where their god lived; it was not a destination for human beings. After death, human beings (both the good ones and the bad ones) went to a place called Sheol, which -- though vaguely defined -- is beneath the ground and the end of any meaningful existence. The god of the Old Testament could not reward or punish people after death; only during life. This is the reason the Ten Commandments (both the Exodus and Deuteronomy versions) include the notion of intergenerational sin (that the children and grandchildren will be punished for the sins of the parent). This morally repugnant idea would only be invented if the god in question did not have an afterlife of reward/punishment at his disposal. After the Babylonian Captivity which ended in 539 BCE, Judah was for 200 years a Persian client state and Jewish thinkers absorbed Zoroastrian ideas, including those of a bodily resurrection and a two-tiered afterlife. Jesus simply repeated these ideas. For a fuller account of all this, check out the amazing book, Seeing Through Christianity.

 

[Noa]

There are many Christians who do not believe in a literal lake-and-fire version of hell. In my opinion, the question should be asked why people believe in a literal fiery hell rather than asking why that fiery hell was not in the OT.

 

[David1967]

[QUOE="Eseka, post: 4467952, member: 58597"]There are many Christians who do not believe in a literal lake-and-fire version of hell. In my opinion, the question should be asked why people believe in a literal fiery hell rather than asking why that fiery hell was not in the OT.[/QUOTE]
The question is a historical one. Since Christianity has its roots in the prophecies in the Old Testament, if such a horrible place exists, why was it not mentioned there. The reason many people believe in a fiery hell would be a good subject for another thread. Im sure you would get a wide variety of answers.

 

[Rise]

The question is a historical one. Since Christianity has its roots in the prophecies in the Old Testament, if such a horrible place exists, why was it not mentioned there. The reason many people believe in a fiery hell would be a good subject for another thread. Im sure you would get a wide variety of answers.

Where do you think the writers of the Talmud and later sages got all their ideas about the afterlife that involve some element of torment from?

There is witness to it in the Tanakh (Old Testament). It is clearly not just a passive place where the dead go, but involves pain and seperation from God. However, we also see it is a place that we don't have to go; but it is a place to which the wicked will go.

2 Samuel 22:6
Deuteronomy 32:22 (burning fire in sheol)
Daniel 12:2 (It's everlasting nature)
Jonah 2:2-6
Psalm 9:17
Proverbs 23:14
Proverbs 15:24
Psalm 116:3
Psalm 86:13
Psalm 55:15
Psalm 18:5
Psalm 16:10

There is even greater witness to all this in pre-Christian writings like Enoch, Tobit, Sirach, 2 Esdras, 4 Maccabees, Psalms of Solomon, Judith, and others. In those you find even more information about what is said to await the wicked when they die.

Josephus makes reference to the Essenes believing in eternal torment. Although he himself as a Pharisee did not believe in it, this still demonstrates that the view existed in a significant way in 1st century Judaism. The Pharisees aren't the measure of what is true either. Jesus had more to say to them about the right interpretation and application of scripture than any other group.

Actually, according to what I have read by various rabbis is that there is NOT an eternal torment. There is a 12 month limit, at which point your soul is cleansed and then goes on to "heaven" OR it is destroyed. Having said that, it would appear that individual Jews may have a different opinion, but the religion of Judaism seems to teach this cleansing period.

There is no dogmatic authoritative view in Rabbinic Judaism on this issue. Aspects of it are left up to the interpretation of the individual Rabbi. Some Rabbis have believed in eternal torment. Others believed in annihilation. It seems clear that most do believe in annihilation today, but there is still room for believing otherwise. There are even varied opinions about what the nature of the torment in Gehenna will be. Some believe it will be a purging physical torment, while others believe it will just be emotional sadness and a life review (not unlike many new age viewpoints today).

Regardless, your original assertion is not true. The modern Christian understanding of Hell was around prior to Christ because it is witnessed to in Jewish apocryphal writings and dead sea scroll literature. And historic Rabbinical ideas about the afterlife aren't as far removed from Christianity as some think; because some Christians also believe they can harmonize purgatory or annihilationism with the scripture, and some Rabbis believed eternal torment can be interpreted from the scripture.

There is virtually no evidence for a global flood that covered Mt. Everest.

There are many PHD holding creation scientists who have valid alternative theories that explain the geological record we see. A lot of how you interpret evidence depends on the underlying presuppositions you bring to it's analysis.

Creation flood theories don't say it had to cover Mt Everest, but that the mountains as we know them were formed during the cataclysmic tectonic movement of worldwide subterranean water chambers breaking forth to the surface (look up hydroplate theory).

Yes cultures around the world talk about a flood, but that is because ancient cultures lived near water...and floods would happen.

Ancient cultures don't just have flood stories about a great deluge. They have common elements attached to the story that involve things we find in the Bible - The concept of a heavenly being wiping out humanity and life because of some great evil that was taking place. A family being spared from the flood in a floating device of some kind. Reference to terrible non-human beings that were a threat to humanity. Total destruction of non-water life as a result of the flood.

You can't explain so much commonality across the globe by chance. You'd have to be suggesting that not only has every culture in the world experienced some kind of flood and mistakenly believed it was global, but they then also fabricated very similar stories about why it happened, and what purpose it served, and how we as a species survived. Such an idea strains all credulity. The most reasonable explanation is that these common elements all trace back to a common event in the very distant past.

 

[Neo Deist]

Where do you think the writers of the Talmud and later sages got all their ideas about the afterlife that involve some element of torment from?

There is witness to it in the Old Testament. It is clearly not just a passive place where the dead go, but involves pain and seperation from God. However, we also see it is a place that we don't have to go, but a place which the wicked will go.

2 Samuel 22:6 (Suffering in sheol)
Deuteronomy 32:22 (burning fire in sheol)
Daniel 12:2 (It's everlasting nature)
Jonah 2:2-6
Psalm 9:17
Proverbs 23:14
Proverbs 15:24
Psalm 116:3
Psalm 86:13
Psalm 55:15
Psalm 18:5
Psalm 16:10

There is even greater witness to all this in the apocryphal writings like Enoch, Tobit, Sirach, 2 Esdras, 4 Maccabees, Psalms of Solomon, Judith, and others. In those you find even more information about what is said to await the wicked when they die.

Josephus makes reference to the Essenes believing in eternal torment. Although he did not believe in it.



There is no dogmatic authoritative view in Rabbinic Judaism on this issue. Some Rabbis have believed in eternal torment. Others believed in annihilation. I would say most today do believe in annihilation. But there is also variety according to what the nature of the torment in gehenna will be. Some believe it will be a purging physical torment, while others believe it will just be emotional sadness and a life review (not unlike many new age viewpoints today).

Regardless, your original assertion is not true. The modern Christian understanding of Hell was around prior to Christ because it is witnessed to in Jewish apocryphal writings and dead sea scroll literature. And historic Rabbinical ideas about the afterlife aren't as far removed from Christianity as some think, as some believe in purgatory or annihilationism, and some Rabbis believed in eternal torment.


There are many PHD holding creation scientists who have valid alternative theories that explain the geological record we see. A lot of how you interpret evidence depends on the underlying presuppositions you bring to it's analysis.

Creation flood theories don't say it had to cover Mt Everest, but that the mountains as we know them we formed during the cataclysmic tectonic movement of worldwide subterranean water chambers breaking forth to the surface (look up hydroplate theory)



Ancient cultures don't just have flood stories about a great deluge. They have common elements attached to the story that involve things we find in the Bible - The concept of a heavenly being wiping out humanity and life because of some great evil that was taking place. A family being spared from the flood in a floating device of some kind. Reference to terrible non-human beings that were a threat to humanity. Total destruction of non-water life as a result of the flood.

You can't explain so much commonality across the globe by chance. You'd have to be suggesting that not only has every culture in the world experienced some kind of flood and mistakenly believed it was global, but they then also fabricated very similar stories about why it happened, and what purpose it served, and how we as a species survived. Such an idea strains all credulity. The most reasonable explanation is that these common elements all trace back to a common event in the very distant past.

Ancient man shared stories from culture to culture, as they were nomadic. There was not a global flood. Pure fairy tale.

 

[allfoak]

Perhaps there is mention of hell in the Old Testament, but not the one that Christians have created.

 

[Rise]

Ancient man shared stories from culture to culture, as they were nomadic.

It is equally implausible that the same core story could have traveled the globe, from the greatest empire to the most remote isolated tribes, and for some reason all of them decide to adopt this story and retell it as a historical fact of their own people's history.

Almost nothing else has that level of global agreement in all world cultures from great to small, aside from the concept of there being a God who created us.
This makes sense if you understand that we had a single origin point of divine knowledge that everyone took with them as they traveled around the globe. Details would be corrupted with time and distance, but there were certain core underlying concepts which make up the story that couldn't be lost without completely scrapping the entire traditions that was passed down to them.

 

[Robert.Evans]

As someone raised in a very Fundamentalist Christian denomination that preached more about Hell fire than Heaven, and more wrath of God than love and compassion of God, I was always curious why such a terrible place was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

That is a good question. Perhaps there is not mention of one end of the spectrum as there was no mention of the resurrection, least not to the degreee of the NT.
If one sees the book as a whole, then it is a learning experience. If the OT is supposed to be whole in itself, it seems deficient to me. It does mention Sheol though, the grave, but the other Hell is the valley of hinnom, and they weren't there at the time - neither of which is a good answer. The oven story in Daniel is one significant pointer to it. Note that those that were within it did not suffer and fire also can purify.