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Why Not Go With Democracy?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
In this thread, I'd like to address in turn two issues that might at first seem to have little or nothing much to do with each other. Namely, (1) what I regard as the chief reason for most of us to value democracy, and (2) what I think is the chief or most usual objection to democracy.

"Democracy" here, is short for "representational democracy", which is any system in which the people do not directly govern themselves, but instead elect representatives such as members of a parliament or senate to represent them.

So, why democracy?

In a nutshell, all other systems of government are less optimal than democracy in allowing people, if they so wish, to achieve some significant measure of self-fulfillment or self-actualization. That's the gist of it.

There's no real need for me to explain here what I mean by "self-fulfillment" or "self-actualization" because I am using the terms in their most common senses.. If you are unclear about their meanings, google is your friend.

What might be more required is to say a couple things about what I do not believe to be very good reasons to value democracy. First, I reject the notion that "freedoms and liberties" are by themselves good reasons to value democracy. They are not, and for an obvious reason. Freedom to do what? Summon a majority to oppress a minority? Implement harmful laws such as mandating female genital mutilation? "Freedoms and liberties" are not necessarily good in and of themselves, but only specific freedoms and liberties can be good. I wish it were the case everyone had the sense to intuitively recognize freedoms and liberties can easily be taken too far, but so many of us don't have the sense for that.

Next, I reject the notion democracy is of much value in generally promoting virtues. It isn't. It won't make people kinder, more compassionate, more honest, generous, dependable -- any of that -- except perhaps very indirectly in the sense it most likely will do nothing to hinder or prevent them from realizing those things.

I am far from being so naive I imagine most people would use the opportunities that being, in effect, self-governing might afford them to pursue and achieve self-fulfillment or self-actualization (which I will from now on simply call "flourishing") in order to actually pursue and achieve such things. Even the most perfect democracy would fall far short at allowing everyone an equal chance to flourish. Beyond which, most people are probably clueless how go about such a project, or are diverted by spiritual or material goals, hedonism, or other such things.

Indeed, for most of us, whatever meaning we seek in living translates into pursuing necessarily fleeting pleasures, and avoiding as much as we can, pain and suffering such that for the most part we are predictably reduced to spending most of our time being simply bored -- as if life were essentially not much more than a matter of almost endlessly standing in line.

A certain palliative nurse used to survey her dying patients, and after much experience of it, she stated the first and universal regret that everyone had at the end was they had not been "truer to themselves". But that's at the end, and it's certainly not how most of us live the vast bulk of our days.

Other systems of government allow some people to flourish, even sometimes many, but I think democracy tops them all. It's the optimal system.

The single criticism I've most often heard of democracy is the greater number of people are fools and, hence, democracy boils down to no less than governance by fools. The argument implicitly or explicitly assumes that some other form of government would typically be lead by much wiser people.

The joke here -- and it's a good one -- is to so naively assume any government of any type is at all likely to be led by notably wise people.

I think a possible excuse for such astonishing naivety is that democracies are usually, it seems, a bit more open and "honest" that they are run mostly by predictably unremarkable people who are most likely qualified for their jobs only by the fact they know how to get themselves into positions of power. Other systems are much better at hiding the fact their claim the "trains at last run on time under them" is a whole lot of hooey.

Of course, there are things a democracy could at least in theory do -- and in practice, might even do marginally better than other systems -- to ameliorate the natural tendency of humans to be foolish. Better universal education, strong constitutional checks and balances, and wise laws to insure as much as possible that the people are well informed -- just three things that immediately come to mind.

In sum, I cannot take seriously the frequent criticism that democracies are any more prone than other systems to foolishness. It's a ridiculous objection. Yet it begs a very real question: Given all systems of government are at least about equally run by unremarkable people, then why not go with democracy if it is indeed the optimal system for allowing people a chance to flourish?

Comments and questions?
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
In this thread, I'd like to address in turn two issues that might at first seem to have little or nothing much to do with each other. Namely, (1) what I regard as the chief reason for most of us to value democracy, and (2) what I think is the chief or most usual objection to democracy.

"Democracy" here, is short for "representational democracy", which is any system in which the people do not directly govern themselves, but instead elect representatives such as members of a parliament or senate to represent them.

So, why democracy?

In a nutshell, all other systems of government are less optimal than democracy in allowing people, if they so wish, to achieve some significant measure of self-fulfillment or self-actualization. That's the gist of it.

There's no real need for me to explain here what I mean by "self-fulfillment" or "self-actualization" because I am using the terms in their most common senses.. If you are unclear about their meanings, google is your friend.

What might be more required is to say a couple things about what I do not believe to be very good reasons to value democracy. First, I reject the notion that "freedoms and liberties" are by themselves good reasons to value democracy. They are not, and for an obvious reason. Freedom to do what? Summon a majority to oppress a minority? Implement harmful laws such as mandating female genital mutilation? "Freedoms and liberties" are not necessarily good in and of themselves, but only specific freedoms and liberties can be good. I wish it were the case everyone had the sense to intuitively recognize freedoms and liberties can easily be taken too far, but so many of us don't have the sense for that.

Next, I reject the notion democracy is of much value in generally promoting virtues. It isn't. It won't make people kinder, more compassionate, more honest, generous, dependable -- any of that -- except perhaps very indirectly in the sense it most likely will do nothing to hinder or prevent them from realizing those things.

I am far from being so naive I imagine most people would use the opportunities that being, in effect, self-governing might afford them to pursue and achieve self-fulfillment or self-actualization (which I will from now on simply call "flourishing") in order to actually pursue and achieve such things. Even the most perfect democracy would fall far short at allowing everyone an equal chance to flourish. Beyond which, most people are probably clueless how go about such a project, or are diverted by spiritual or material goals, hedonism, or other such things.

Indeed, for most of us, whatever meaning we seek in living translates into pursuing necessarily fleeting pleasures, and avoiding as much as we can, pain and suffering such that for the most part we are predictably reduced to spending most of our time being simply bored -- as if life were essentially not much more than a matter of almost endlessly standing in line.

A certain palliative nurse used to survey her dying patients, and after much experience of it, she stated the first and universal regret that everyone had at the end was they had not been "truer to themselves". But that's at the end, and it's certainly not how most of us live the vast bulk of our days.

Other systems of government allow some people to flourish, even sometimes many, but I think democracy tops them all. It's the optimal system.

The single criticism I've most often heard of democracy is the greater number of people are fools and, hence, democracy boils down to no less than governance by fools. The argument implicitly or explicitly assumes that some other form of government would typically be lead by much wiser people.

The joke here -- and it's a good one -- is to so naively assume any government of any type is at all likely to be led by notably wise people.

I think a possible excuse for such astonishing naivety is that democracies are usually, it seems, a bit more open and "honest" that they are run mostly by predictably unremarkable people who are most likely qualified for their jobs only by the fact they know how to get themselves into positions of power. Other systems are much better at hiding the fact their claim the "trains at last run on time under them" is a whole lot of hooey.

Of course, there are things a democracy could at least in theory do -- and in practice, might even do marginally better than other systems -- to ameliorate the natural tendency of humans to be foolish. Better universal education, strong constitutional checks and balances, and wise laws to insure as much as possible that the people are well informed -- just three things that immediately come to mind.

In sum, I cannot take seriously the frequent criticism that democracies are any more prone than other systems to foolishness. It's a ridiculous objection. Yet it begs a very real question: Given all systems of government are at least about equally run by unremarkable people, then why not go with democracy if it is indeed the optimal system for allowing people a chance to flourish?

Comments and questions?

Maybe we should implement representation in government like we do military service in a time of war...require everyone to participate at some level (so they get a taste of what it is like), let/require those who get good ratings from their peers graduate to higher levels of mandatory service (regardless, or even in spite of, their lack of interest). Maybe we could implement, in this way, a representational government of unwilling philosopher kings...
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I'm parting ways with you on this topic, Amigo.

Imagine that we are hiring for any decision-making job. We'd want someone with the:

-- maximum IQ
-- maximum of relevant experience
-- minimum of relevant bias
-- minimum of know-it-all arrogance, willing to listen to others


Electing politicians as we do accomplishes none of those objectives. In fact, the people ambitious for political power are the very kind we should disqualify. They were born genetically predisposed to corruption in their mother's womb.

I think we're not too many years away from government decision-making by leaderless, expert teams.

-- members randomly selected by computer from the nation's brightest minds
-- trained to specialize in specific kinds of decisions
-- debate and discussion made in e-writing and transparent to the public

Obviously, there's a lot more to this idea but the history of this idea goes back at least as far as the Second World War and a group which advised the Allies on strategy -- later to become the Rand Corporation.

There are also early attempts to employ the expert team concept in business. However, these are teams actually meeting face-to-face, with "leaders" emerging and so on. This isn't what I see coming for government.
 
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In sum, I cannot take seriously the frequent criticism that democracies are any more prone than other systems to foolishness. It's a ridiculous objection. Yet it begs a very real question: Given all systems of government are at least about equally run by unremarkable people, then why not go with democracy if it is indeed the optimal system for allowing people a chance to flourish?

Democracies can very easily become illiberal democracies, where a popular mandate is used to take away the rights of minorities (Turkey, Russia, etc.).

A democracy is not created merely by the introduction of a vote, but via cultural evolution of requisite legal and social frameworks that accept the rights of others (to a degree) and acknowledge a sense of common citizenship.

If democracy is the best system, it is only so in the right socio-political context.

Maybe we should implement representation in government like we do military service in a time of war...require everyone to participate at some level (so they get a taste of what it is like), let/require those who get good ratings from their peers graduate to higher levels of mandatory service (regardless, or even in spite of, their lack of interest). Maybe we could implement, in this way, a representational government of unwilling philosopher kings...

That seems unworkable, a realistic alternative is Sortition. A random selection of the entire populace is truly democratic, and avoids many of the problems of competitive party politics.

Combine sortition with extremely decentralised federalism Swiss style, then you have a proper system of government that would cure many of the ills of our failing political systems.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'm parting ways with you on this topic, Amigo.

Imagine that we are hiring for any decision-making job. We'd want someone with the:

-- maximum IQ
-- maximum of relevant experience
-- minimum of relevant bias
-- minimum of know-it-all arrogance, willing to listen to others


Electing politicians as we do accomplishes none of those objectives. In fact, the people ambitious for political power are the very kind we should disqualify. They were born genetically predisposed to corruption in their mother's womb.

I think we're not too many years away from government decision-making by leaderless, expert teams.

-- members randomly selected by computer from the nation's brightest minds
-- trained to specialize in specific kinds of decisions
-- debate and discussion made in e-writing and transparent to the public

Obviously, there's a lot more to this idea but the history of this idea goes back at least as far as the Second World War and a group which advised the Allies on strategy -- later to become the Rand Corporation.

There are also early attempts to employ the expert team concept in business. However, these are teams actually meeting face-to-face, with "leaders" emerging and so on. This isn't what I see coming for government.

That's the problem with democracy. We elect officials on popularity, likeability, charisma not expertise at doing anything.

The only thing a politician needs to be good at is getting elected. Whereas a corporation can promote the brightest and most successful. Corporations that do become successful. That's probably why many corporation are now more powerful than many governments, they are simply smarter.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Democracy seem to work far better with smaller populations .

Larger populations I think do well with representative republics.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
In this thread, I'd like to address in turn two issues that might at first seem to have little or nothing much to do with each other. Namely, (1) what I regard as the chief reason for most of us to value democracy, and (2) what I think is the chief or most usual objection to democracy.

"Democracy" here, is short for "representational democracy", which is any system in which the people do not directly govern themselves, but instead elect representatives such as members of a parliament or senate to represent them.

So, why democracy?

In a nutshell, all other systems of government are less optimal than democracy in allowing people, if they so wish, to achieve some significant measure of self-fulfillment or self-actualization. That's the gist of it.

There's no real need for me to explain here what I mean by "self-fulfillment" or "self-actualization" because I am using the terms in their most common senses.. If you are unclear about their meanings, google is your friend.

What might be more required is to say a couple things about what I do not believe to be very good reasons to value democracy. First, I reject the notion that "freedoms and liberties" are by themselves good reasons to value democracy. They are not, and for an obvious reason. Freedom to do what? Summon a majority to oppress a minority? Implement harmful laws such as mandating female genital mutilation? "Freedoms and liberties" are not necessarily good in and of themselves, but only specific freedoms and liberties can be good. I wish it were the case everyone had the sense to intuitively recognize freedoms and liberties can easily be taken too far, but so many of us don't have the sense for that.

Next, I reject the notion democracy is of much value in generally promoting virtues. It isn't. It won't make people kinder, more compassionate, more honest, generous, dependable -- any of that -- except perhaps very indirectly in the sense it most likely will do nothing to hinder or prevent them from realizing those things.

I am far from being so naive I imagine most people would use the opportunities that being, in effect, self-governing might afford them to pursue and achieve self-fulfillment or self-actualization (which I will from now on simply call "flourishing") in order to actually pursue and achieve such things. Even the most perfect democracy would fall far short at allowing everyone an equal chance to flourish. Beyond which, most people are probably clueless how go about such a project, or are diverted by spiritual or material goals, hedonism, or other such things.

Indeed, for most of us, whatever meaning we seek in living translates into pursuing necessarily fleeting pleasures, and avoiding as much as we can, pain and suffering such that for the most part we are predictably reduced to spending most of our time being simply bored -- as if life were essentially not much more than a matter of almost endlessly standing in line.

A certain palliative nurse used to survey her dying patients, and after much experience of it, she stated the first and universal regret that everyone had at the end was they had not been "truer to themselves". But that's at the end, and it's certainly not how most of us live the vast bulk of our days.

Other systems of government allow some people to flourish, even sometimes many, but I think democracy tops them all. It's the optimal system.

The single criticism I've most often heard of democracy is the greater number of people are fools and, hence, democracy boils down to no less than governance by fools. The argument implicitly or explicitly assumes that some other form of government would typically be lead by much wiser people.

The joke here -- and it's a good one -- is to so naively assume any government of any type is at all likely to be led by notably wise people.

I think a possible excuse for such astonishing naivety is that democracies are usually, it seems, a bit more open and "honest" that they are run mostly by predictably unremarkable people who are most likely qualified for their jobs only by the fact they know how to get themselves into positions of power. Other systems are much better at hiding the fact their claim the "trains at last run on time under them" is a whole lot of hooey.

Of course, there are things a democracy could at least in theory do -- and in practice, might even do marginally better than other systems -- to ameliorate the natural tendency of humans to be foolish. Better universal education, strong constitutional checks and balances, and wise laws to insure as much as possible that the people are well informed -- just three things that immediately come to mind.

In sum, I cannot take seriously the frequent criticism that democracies are any more prone than other systems to foolishness. It's a ridiculous objection. Yet it begs a very real question: Given all systems of government are at least about equally run by unremarkable people, then why not go with democracy if it is indeed the optimal system for allowing people a chance to flourish?

Comments and questions?
It's not at all optimal. (sorry)

The obvious flaw with democracy you pointed out yourself. It's like two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. But other than that you've missed a serious flaw. That is the manipulation of the people. People are easily manipulated. As you pointed out it's government by fools. But that's not totally true. No fools will be able to hold power for long. The fool must give place to those who are more intelligent. However more intelligent doesn't necessarily mean good-natured. So through subtle manipulation the masses will be enslaved to the few who are smart (and ruthless) enough to dominate. Yes the ruthless prevail. Going back to the analogy of the wolf. His evil is less to be feared because it's open aggression. For the saying goes "the cunning of the fox is as murderous as the violence of the wolf".

The best and most optimal forms of government are LOCAL governments always! The more we can keep government localized the better for everyone. That's why we need to stop with the federal madness. Return to state rights and even localize more than that. Let's see more county level power ... that's real power to the people. The federal government should only be there to deal with foreign powers so that all the local governments coming together have a united front towards any foreign aggression and can also negotiate advantageous treaties or trade deals.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Namely, (1) what I regard as the chief reason for most of us to value democracy,

I think democracy is the best system because there is a bloodless revolution with each election. Dictatorships and authoritarian type governments tend to change through bloody revolutions, which is a drawback.

and (2) what I think is the chief or most usual objection to democracy.

The chief drawback is that humans tend to like a single strong leader who makes the big decisions instead of a wishy-washy committee. That's why you tend to see dictators rise and fall throughout all of history and even into the modern age. Dictatorships can sound good in practice, but usually devolve into corruption and persecution. Spreading the power out and having checks and balances between power bases helps to prevent corruption and overreaches of power.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I can't agree with you on this. Decentralized systems are powerless to effect change.

Example: In the USA, we don't have an education system. We have more than 4,000 of them. The Fed once spent a ton of money to identify the three best new approaches that they could find in the country. They offered the local school teachers their choice of the three. Teachers picked the program they wanted to use. After a trial period, the Rand Corp. studied the result and found that there was no change. The schools continued to operate just as they always had.

The hierarchy has the power to enforce change. We simply need decision makers at the top who are competent and not corrupt..
I'm generally against forcing things on people. So I think if they like their current system they should be able to keep it. The best way to implement change is by example rather than force. So if county A makes a nice change to their school system; then county B can notice that and do the same thing or try to one up them. Do something even better. Basically, if people want freedom then empowering local government is the way to go. If they want some kind of big brother government then I think they'll get more than they wanted.

Another good point about empowering local government is that when you don't like the way your local government is being run, and yet you can't convince people to change it. Then you could hopefully just move a few miles away to a system that suits you better. Instead of leaving the entire country.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
I'm generally against forcing things on people. So I think if they like their current system they should be able to keep it. The best way to implement change is by example rather than force. So if county A makes a nice change to their school system; then county B can notice that and do the same thing or try to one up them. Do something even better. Basically, if people want freedom then empowering local government is the way to go. If they want some kind of big brother government then I think they'll get more than they wanted.

Another good point about empowering local government is that when you don't like the way your local government is being run, and yet you can't convince people to change it. Then you could hopefully just move a few miles away to a system that suits you better. Instead of leaving the entire country.

That's good in theory, but terrible in practice. If each city had different regulations for transportation, health insurance, health inspections, and so forth it would be a logistical nightmare for most companies. It's bad enough when states have their own regulations. If a town upriver has no regulations on dumping toxins in to a river, what does that mean for the towns downriver? There is something to be said for country wide regulations and systems.
 
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