Songofmorning
Member
Hi all! I'm new here and I just wanted to know if most of you think that it's either God or science that has the most truth? I personally believe that true science proves God not disproves God. What do you think?
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Why not God AND Science?
- Thread starter Songofmorning
- Start date
It's not a crazy thought at all. For a while now, I have been trying to put forward the theory that "supernatural" is really only "natural", but at a time when our science wasn't up to understanding what then had to be called supernatural.gnosis_777 said:
Take a native villager in some deep forrest, who has never met anyone from the outside world, who sees a helicopter; I think he might fall on his knees and start worshiping it.
I think it is quite logically possible.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
I think science and religion are absolutely compatible. But I do not think science can, or ever will prove or disprove the concept we all "God".
Science and Religion: A Unitarian Universalist Perspective
Science and Religion: A Unitarian Universalist Perspective
WeAreAllOne
Member
If anything I think Quantum Physics closest to proveing the exsistance of some higher order.
I would assume any science would have an all but impossable job of proving one over another though.
I would assume any science would have an all but impossable job of proving one over another though.
ladylazarus
Member
Science is compatible with religion because if one follows the findings of the scientific method, he cannot have beliefs (I myself am in that school of thought). Religion consists of beliefs, and therefore one could say "I know that scientific evidence suggests that my religious beliefs have a low probablility of being correct, but I still believe them," and still be perfectly logically consistent.
However, science certainly does not prove God. The findings of science strongly suggest that god does not exist.
Then you have a pretty poor understanding of Quantum Physics.
However, science certainly does not prove God. The findings of science strongly suggest that god does not exist.
Then you have a pretty poor understanding of Quantum Physics.
Songofmorning
Member
Not to backpeddle or anything but I see what you all are saying about science proving God. God needs no proof what I was trying to say was that science especially biology and the sort of things that science tries to explain show that there is an Intelligence which I know to be God running this universe.
Take for example, the replication of DNA. It is a very complicated process that even scientists liken to the working of a machine. Do machines just assemble themselves or are they made by someone who is more intelligent than they are? Or take for example the making of ATP. This is actually done by a protein that is shaped like a machine. Scientists call it the proton pump.
What I'm getting at is that no one will look at an air plane flying in the sky and say "wow! That plane must have just assembled itself." Life and the universe is infinitely more complex than any air plane could ever be and some people continue to think that it all just happened.
Take for example, the replication of DNA. It is a very complicated process that even scientists liken to the working of a machine. Do machines just assemble themselves or are they made by someone who is more intelligent than they are? Or take for example the making of ATP. This is actually done by a protein that is shaped like a machine. Scientists call it the proton pump.
What I'm getting at is that no one will look at an air plane flying in the sky and say "wow! That plane must have just assembled itself." Life and the universe is infinitely more complex than any air plane could ever be and some people continue to think that it all just happened.
robtex
Veteran Member
We know man made the plane by the evidence of manufacturing plants filled with workers making planes. Where is God's manufacting plant showing him showing him making componets of the universe? Have you or anyone else observed God making the universe or maintaining it and if so what does God look like and where?Songofmorning said:
ladylazarus
Member
Songofmorning said:
This is a pretty common misconception, but it's still just that. The entire goal of science is understanding this complexity, and how it arose through natural forces. Life is infintely more complex than any airplane -- that's precisely why it takes the power of natural forces to make it the way it is. It is a logical fallacy to assume that it requires an intelligence to create these things.
Also, it is a logical fallacy to assume that anything that exists was created. If everything requires a creator, what created the creator? And so on infinitely.
Saying "the universe is too complex to be the way it is" is just like saying "the way things are can't be the way things are, because I say so."
Songofmorning
Member
Hi Ladylazarus! I understand your arguments but where is your proof that the power of natural forces creates life? Where is your proof that natural forces have power at all? Where is your proof that natural forces even exist? And what exactly are natural forces? One might argue that humans are stronger than these natural forces since we have so much control over the planet. We are even changing it's climate with global warming and the like. So I think that it is also a logical fallacy for you to state that natural forces shaped life just because you say so.I am not assuming that everything that exists needs a creator. I have examined how complex life is and how complexity in itself in the evidence for intelligent design.
Robtex, Lol! (I hope you don't think I'm being rude I just thought it was a little funny) I did have a laugh but seriously just because a peson has yet to witness certain things that doesn't mean that there is no proof that these things do not exist. For example, people of times past didn't believe in the atom and yet they were wrong. Don't you think that it is arrogant to state that just because you or anyone else hasn't seen something that it doesn't exist? How do you that you have a brain or a heart or a liver? You have never seen them or touched them or anything else but we all know that you have a brain, and heart, and liver. Why? Because your body is in working condition and you are intelligent enough to post replies on this forum. The same is true of this planet and the universe. There is order: The sun rises everyday. Your DNA replicates without losing vital genetic information, etc. I hope that you understand where I'm coming from.
Robtex, Lol! (I hope you don't think I'm being rude I just thought it was a little funny) I did have a laugh but seriously just because a peson has yet to witness certain things that doesn't mean that there is no proof that these things do not exist. For example, people of times past didn't believe in the atom and yet they were wrong. Don't you think that it is arrogant to state that just because you or anyone else hasn't seen something that it doesn't exist? How do you that you have a brain or a heart or a liver? You have never seen them or touched them or anything else but we all know that you have a brain, and heart, and liver. Why? Because your body is in working condition and you are intelligent enough to post replies on this forum. The same is true of this planet and the universe. There is order: The sun rises everyday. Your DNA replicates without losing vital genetic information, etc. I hope that you understand where I'm coming from.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
I never saw a kidney stone. I felt it though. A scan of my body even revealed its size and location. Shared observations with others who had these things verified the experience of near crippling pain to be common with kidney stones. Why this example? Because everything about the experience validates the ability of human reason to cope with something I neither observed with the common senses (pain is a sense though!) nor conceived of its existence in my mind prior to experiencing the pain.Songofmorning said:
Just because I may experience that I have never seen or felt before does not make it rational to assume supernatural forces for the experience to make sense.
ladylazarus
Member
Songofmorning said:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB010_2.html
...I don't even know how to respond to this. Are you suggesting that there is no proof that gravity has power? That earthquakes never happen and stars never exlode? That there are no tides and that lightning never strikes? That magnets don't cling together and that friction doesn't cause heat? That your arms don't go out from your body when you spin?
Well there's the problem. You don't know what you're talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force
Again, you simply don't understand what I'm talking about. Humans do not even come close to having control over the forces of nature. Just because we can change things doesn't mean that we have power over them. Ask all the people buried under earthquake rubble in Pakistan, or the people trapped in ash at Pompeii if they think we're stronger than the forces of nature.
How old are you? Have you ever even taken a highschool physics class?
Then you don't know what a logical fallacy is.
Yes you are.
No it isn't. Complexity is not evidence of anything other than the fact that humans are insignificant and have only a pitiful understanding of the universe.
A true scientist has no 'faith' in science. On the contrary, a true scientist realizes that science is all about reduction of observations in laws and theories. A true scientist realizes that, as more data are being available, formerly postulated laws may have to be revised, and an updated and more powerful theory can be postulated. But creationists seem to miss this point.cardero said:
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
I tend to see science and religion as two different sports. Sure, they are both good exercise, build discipline, and are quite fun. But to say that playing football makes you a better sailor, is pretty falacious logically. Science is not here for moral and spiritual growth. And religion is not here for understanding the natural workings of the universe, or as a history book.
I would also like to say that if religion and science were to embark on the same goal, they would both cease to exist as religion, and as science. And become pretty much the same thing. Perhaps, enlightenment?
I would also like to say that if religion and science were to embark on the same goal, they would both cease to exist as religion, and as science. And become pretty much the same thing. Perhaps, enlightenment?
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