Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Through the sending of the Word (Yeshua) and through the written Word.
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Why One God
- Thread starter The Hammer
- Start date
Ah. The written Word has to be transcribed by man (therefore fallible).
I stick with experiential analysis.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Just for today, I’m quite comfortable with the Trinity, and the explanation I was given as a child; that it’s not three Gods, it’s three natures of the One.
I’m also comfortable with all the Angels and Saints, which is a kind of Catholic polytheism. Oh, and I say my Hail Marys just because. But philosophically, I’m not really a polytheist, I’m probably more a Monist; everything is connected, everything is One.
Every atom in a body, every star in a galaxy, every galaxy in the universe; it’s all one fundamental whole, infinite and indivisible, always dynamic, always unfolding; as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end.
I’m also comfortable with all the Angels and Saints, which is a kind of Catholic polytheism. Oh, and I say my Hail Marys just because. But philosophically, I’m not really a polytheist, I’m probably more a Monist; everything is connected, everything is One.
Every atom in a body, every star in a galaxy, every galaxy in the universe; it’s all one fundamental whole, infinite and indivisible, always dynamic, always unfolding; as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end.
No, not really. Because it's not like a monotheist/monist would actually believe me.
I've already given my reasons and experience here. Which is obviously not enough.
So you have no nature or perspective outside of what is given to you by the whole, huh?
Incapable of making any meaningful distinction.
firedragon
Veteran Member
See, this is your thread. I have not made any claims. But you have made a hard claim that God is not capable so its only possible with many Gods.
Thus, it's your burden to provide evidence to your own claim that God is not capable and there has to be many Gods. Rather than getting into a burden of proof fallacy, can you explain why God is not capable and there is to be many to do the job?
go ahead.
I did. I gave what I call the complexity argument.
Show me any very complex item like a car, or phone, or video game, computer system, society, town, village, building or book that is created by only one set of hands.
There are none.
Edit: I even used the same methodological format you did.
1. God is the Necessary being and the creator.
2. To create, the creator has to have a will.
3. If there are two God's there has to be two different wills.
4. Two wills will have two plans, two directions, but the universe has been so perfectly organised for life it has to be one single plan, one direction, one will. No conflict. Not even a dot worthy of conflict in the whole of the cosmos.
5. God is one.
-------------------------------
1. Gods are Necessary beings for an Ordered universe requiring Creation.
2. To create, the creators have to have a will.
3. If there are two or more Gods there has to be two or more different wills.
4. Two or more wills bring about cooperation, and increase the overall complexity of the finished product (much like our cosmos)
5. The Gods are Many
(Added small edit)
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Why do you think that God cannot be so complex? Do you think God is human?
Why is God so limited in your thesis?
Because no unlimited thing exists.
Everything has boundaries; even if there were a single God would it not be constrained to this Universe?
My Gods work outside of this universe, and within it.
Edit: Even within mathematics, ie Calculus, infinity has bounds.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Don’t know about that. But I believe that neither I nor anyone or anything else has any existence independently of the whole. That which I call I, is a fleeting convergence of transient phenomena, which are interdependent on all other fleeting and transient phenomena. Only the whole is real - everything other, everything which is this or that, everything which is named, is an illusion.
Hence the Haiku;
I hand back my name
as I step into
this Eden of flowers
What I see, whenever arguments such as yours are put forward, is an inability to realize that your are assuming (without knowing it) exactly what you are trying to refute!
The universe is too complex, too much is going on, etc. and yada yada, so that needs more complex "management," and thus more gods with different talents.
Yet, you pay precisely zero attention to the provenance of these multi-talented vicariously motivated gods! Where did they come from? In the absence of anything at all, wherefore derive all these characters and interests and powers? You don't know -- you just assume that must be how it was.
Yet, Occam's Razor tells you that you would be much closer to the truth if you cut down on the assumptions. Therefore, if you can't assume complexity in the universe can arise on its own, you've even less reason to presume that it can arise "pre-universe" on its own.
Instead of making all these assumptions, I think it would be much more intelligent to admit that you don't know, and that your uninformed speculations aren't telling you much.
I do know what I am assuming actually. I set this up under the presumptions of the original person I was debating with, who wanted us to move to a separate thread. My typical stance on deity is a bit different then what I present here. And it would be more accurately explained in this thread here: Polytheistic Monism
But that requires reading a bunch of articles, so here is my summary.
1- In some ways reality is One.
2- In some ways reality is Many.
3- In some ways reality is both One and Many.
4- In some ways reality is One but indescribable.
5- In some ways reality is Many but indescribable.
6- In some ways reality is both One and Many yet still indescribable.
7- In some ways reality is just plain indescribable.
You can sub "reality" for "deity". 4-7 all reference indescribability, which to me means, we don't really know. But I've got my buy in on polytheism and the Many, over the One.
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Good for you then too
Callisto
Hellenismos, BTW
Depends on the nature of the Divine is perceived. Monotheism generally sees the divine as remote and outside of the universe, transcendent. Polytheism typically sees the Divine as being immanent, the Divine encompasses the universe. Differences in opinions diverge from there.
firedragon
Veteran Member
How do you know?
For the same reasons you know it does.
My scriptures tell me so, and my experience does too.
Edit: Just like the universe isn't infinite but finite and expanding.
"According the current Cosmology our Universe is finite and unbounded, even if it is expanding. The visual analogy that is given to explain this is an expanding sphere where the galaxies are dots on it's surface."
firedragon
Veteran Member
I didnt make any claim in this thread. It's you making the claim.
So how do you know?
Already been explained.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I am only asking because you have quoted me in the OP.
You claimed that there "has to be" many God's because the creation of the universe has to be segmented into many parts because God has limited powers and the tasks have to be segmented like human beings who create computer games.
I asked you "why is God so limited". Your answer was "because there is nothing unlimited". First, the options available other than "limited" is not "unlimited" only. Maybe Gods powers are not "unlimited". But why is God's ability so limited that the project of the universe need to be segmented and delegated to other God's?
You have never given any explanation other than "because there is nothing unlimited". The question is "how do you know" God is so limited! It's your thesis. Your claim. In your own OP.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Incorrect self hierarchial status. Claiming you're always everything as one human.
One human is one human. Natural only and not any separated evaluation.
As one self you determine three types of other one as species.
You see observe categorise the importance of the three as compared to each one.
You then quote mutual balances.
Which it is precisely.
Without the garden type nature you don't breathe.
Without the animals you aren't yourself.
Then you're human dominion one. Accepting all things. Everything.
Science doesn't accept anything it sought to destroy change all things by man's will.
As he freely by mind and body just human choice wants to manipulate what he wants.
So you realise his non acceptance.
As he displaced his mutual living equal woman life partner. Balances.
Places mother's term continuance as space womb..it's abomination....it's nature...the earth...and mothership earth core.
He says he's the man who drives the mothership. Precise warned mind displacement. A conscious illness.
A pressurised held powerful mass that space forced to be held the core mass a huge amount of energy.... that he wants to invent into a star space scattered time line.
Is warned his man's confession of Sion. Fusion. As he doesn't want life he wants to exist in the cosmos form only.
By claiming he is God the man. Inventor creator of beginnings by mans thought. Human beliefs.
Then includes a machine that begins with his God the rock planet of earth.
As man's sciences beginnings is direct with God. One earth mass no heavens included as it's direct to change mass body only. Why the heavens get burnt removed by cause.
O time mass one body held coldest position by his terms only. Stories he coerced you away from realising it's direct intention...earth mass. To cause a time line.
The star he was taught about.
As he keeps claiming earths core is a black hole space flow of power. And not a mass held pressurised energy ball.
Intention is to give it a hole.
His intent is to put his God rock beginnings gods only earth man of science into a time line star. By his invention.
As he knows he never created creation by words.
Therefore his philosophies are his first con position. To pretend he exists separated.
Therefore Rome tried to contend with his abusive mind stating man owned the three naturally personally balanced. To shift his mind from our separation.
History Muslim men said don't use technology learnt from Egypt. Forbidden.
Rome rebuilt it claiming I update the model it's safe...yet it blew up. Reason a star mass had greater pressure applied than earths mass a larger mass.
Then said no technology.
Then Muslim men's conscious changed they wanted to rebuild it.
So you take turns telling yourselves don't build it claiming your more righteously informed than your brother.
As it's only about why science of man was falsely believed first. By a changed mind state interfered with by atmospheric burn cooling to give him ego status falsely.
Claiming he survived cosmic star burn as a Superior life force.
How his mind separated into imbalanced belief.