Why pantheism?

[Yerda]

Pantheists, panentheists, what was it that lead you to believe whatever it is you believe?

I've been watching all these non-dualist themed videos on YouTube and reading stuff about reality arising from information. For entertainment. I mean that I find it exciting to entertain the ideas bit don't find any way I can say whether it could be true.

I've recently noticed that a lot of you post stuff that either looks the same or is the same. If you need examples I'll fetch them. In any case, tell me why you hold to or agree with pantheism.

Cheers.

 

[Storm]

I reinvented the wheel.

Seriously, the more my theology developed, the fewer separations made sense.

I was a hard polytheist when I first discovered paganism. In relatively short order, 5 years or so, I had come to see all nameable deities as manifestations of one underlying divinity. Some time later, it dawned on me that I thought the idea that the 'natural' world was somehow different, separate, was just... stupid. Bye bye, supernatural, bye bye dualism.

I thought it was quite a breakthrough... then I found out that the idea was only a couple of millennia old, and there's even an English word. I was a bit crestfallen, but more happy to have a bit of validation. LOL

 

[Willamena]

Pantheists, panentheists, what was it that lead you to believe whatever it is you believe?

Perspective. When I was 13 I was introduced to a dilemma: is the world what is known from the perspective of the mind, or is it what is known regardless of mind (which of course dismisses mind).

I found a compromise.

 

[nazz]

Pantheists, panentheists, what was it that lead you to believe whatever it is you believe?

I've been watching all these non-dualist themed videos on YouTube and reading stuff about reality arising from information. For entertainment. I mean that I find it exciting to entertain the ideas bit don't find any way I can say whether it could be true.

I've recently noticed that a lot of you post stuff that either looks the same or is the same. If you need examples I'll fetch them. In any case, tell me why you hold to or agree with pantheism.

Cheers.

Because the only logical view I can see is that everything had to come from one primordial source--hence pantheism. But I am aware of a force outside of this physical universe--hence the panentheistic view.

 

[George-ananda]

Well I'm Advaitan which is pantheistic. It's like quantum mechanics or relativity theory in that I would never have thunk it up on my own but I'm glad someone else did. Although spiritual matters can never be studied with the rigor of physical matters, I think the sages of the Advaitan tradition have the deepest spiritual understanding of any of mankind's traditions.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Pantheists, panentheists, what was it that lead you to believe whatever it is you believe?

I've been watching all these non-dualist themed videos on YouTube and reading stuff about reality arising from information. For entertainment. I mean that I find it exciting to entertain the ideas bit don't find any way I can say whether it could be true.

I've recently noticed that a lot of you post stuff that either looks the same or is the same. If you need examples I'll fetch them. In any case, tell me why you hold to or agree with pantheism.

Cheers.

Before I became a pantheist, my life was nearing the event horizon of nihilism. That all changed when I looked closer at the world. I realized my position in it, and my connection to it. I realized that we are all part of it.

And then it spoke to me - the universe did. Not directly, but still intentionally (at least it looks that way). After I became aware of this oneness, I noticed a pattern in existence. A pattern that only makes sense when you apply pantheism.

 

[Quintessence]

What led to it? Simple awareness, honestly. I grew up, like most people in this country, learning about the idea of god through a telescopic lens. God was this, and only this, and everything else I was pathetically unaware of. I never particularly liked Christian theology and mythology, and abandoned it very young. I was ignorant of anything else and was "atheist" until I realized I'd been staring at religion and theism through a telescope. As I stopped being so pathetically ignorant of theology, I developed a theology that was in keeping with my observations of and sentiments about reality. And that would be polytheistic/animistic pantheism. There is no thing that is not sacred and worthy of worship.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I'm interesting in understanding the difference(s) between pantheism and panentheism. Is this Wiki entry an accurate description?
Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Quintessence]

Pretty much.

But in practice, it gets a bit more complicated than that because the distinction hinges upon certain ontological assumptions or the meaning of terms like "nature" and "universe."

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I'm interesting in understanding the difference(s) between pantheism and panentheism. Is this Wiki entry an accurate description?
Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All the theories of pan/panentheism are wonderful thought-constructs, conceptualizations of something I don't think us humans can really experience or comprehend fully. After all, the current thinking is that the radius of the visible portion of the universe is something like 40 billion lightyears (times six trillion miles), and that if the Big Bang happened the way the general theory supposes, then the part of the universe we can't see is at least 2,000 times larger. I'm not sure how a human could perceive all that volume and all that content--or even a fraction of one percent of it--and feel "oneness" with it, and know whether it is "all there is" or if it "extends beyond all that is."

For myself, I can really comprehend distances up to a few hundreds of miles, because I've hiked tens of miles in a day, and about 100 miles in a trip, and can conceive of stringing a number of such hikes together. This is much more in keeping with how people conceived of the "world" before modern science came along and expanded our horizons. In such a universe, pan/panentheism is maybe a comprehensible concept. Now, in a vastly larger place, it's like asking which infinity is bigger.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Now, in a vastly larger place, it's like asking which infinity is bigger.

Yes, it's mind-boggling. I've recently developed an interest in astronomy and have been looking at the Andromeda galaxy which is 2.5 million light years away. It's awe-inspiring and beautiful, beyond that I don't know.

 

[George-ananda]

All the theories of pan/panentheism are wonderful thought-constructs, conceptualizations of something I don't think us humans can really experience or comprehend fully.

Agree. Perhaps only those few that have experienced Cosmic Consciousness comprehended it for their experience. Perhaps it can't be grasped by a mind in a finite state of consciousness. One thing is maybe we should think of it more as Oneness of consciousness rather than Oneness with the universe. My respected mystics/sages tell us their is only Consciousness. Until I experience, I do believe what they say is the best hypothesis I've encountered.

 

[Storm]

I'm interesting in understanding the difference(s) between pantheism and panentheism. Is this Wiki entry an accurate description?
Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty much.

But in practice, it gets a bit more complicated than that because the distinction hinges upon certain ontological assumptions or the meaning of terms like "nature" and "universe."

What he said.

I prefer to specify that the cosmos, the physical universe, is the God's physical form, its body. Just as you are thoughts and emotions and ideals as well as flesh, there is more to God than the cosmos.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Agree. Perhaps only those few that have experienced Cosmic Consciousness comprehended it for their experience. Perhaps it can't be grasped by a mind in a finite state of consciousness. One thing is maybe we should think of it more as Oneness of consciousness rather than Oneness with the universe. My respected mystics/sages tell us their is only Consciousness. Until I experience, I do believe what they say is the best hypothesis I've encountered.

I think that's an interesting point. On several occasions during meditation I've achieved a state that seems to me to be oneness, a stillness and connectedness. On at least one other occasion, I've felt/seen/perceived through connections to everything near me, above, below, behind, seen and unseen, what I can only describe as being aware at all points of view at once--but only locally, within maybe a couple hundred feet or so--with awareness that felt like I could go flying through those connections to more distant places, but I did not. That seemed to last some time, but objectively was no more than a minute. Since that event, I sometimes seem to perceive events from the perspective of others nearby--most often, I can become aware of animals along the road while driving, even when I can't see them, it seems that in my mind's eye (for lack of a better term), I see myself in my car driving, from the perspective of the creature I'm approaching. I've missed hitting them because of that awareness, because I slow down and move over, or I see them because I can see where they are...

Not sure how that exactly fits with your point, but to me it seems it does...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So do pantheists and panentheists generally regard universe/God as eternal, or is there the concept of creation?

 

[Quintessence]

I don't think one can generalize.

But, personally I regard that as a question that rests on a false dichotomy. As far as humans are concerned, reality is eternal transformation. That is to say, as far as we should be concerned, it has always been here and it is constantly undergoing creation/destruction. Personally, I really couldn't care less if reality had a "beginning" somewhere, because we can't ever know the answer to that question. Practically speaking, reality has always been here, and is constantly undergoing transformation (creation/destruction - they're the same thing when you get down to it, as destruction always creates something else and creation always destroys something else).

 

[Storm]

Yeah, there's definitely not a typical answer to that one.

I actually believe our "Godiverse" is one of many, born to at least one parent and not yet mature.

And I SO want there to be multiple parents, because then the Big Bang is the greatest pun in the English language....

 

[metis]

So do pantheists and panentheists generally regard universe/God as eternal, or is there the concept of creation?

Pantheists tend to view God as being intrinsic with the universe/multiverse, whereas Panentheists tend to view God as being outside but that they are reflective of God. Most of us in Judaism that drift in this direction do not really differentiate ourselves, probably since it's virtually impossible to provide evidence or conclusive logic one way or the other.

Undoubtedly our greatest spokesman for this approach was Baruch Spinoza, who inspired Einstein, btw.

 

[Yerda]

What reading material (if any) would you recommend to an interested, but sceptical, person?

 

[Willamena]

I haven't read it, so can't recommend it, but browsing the books on Amazon.ca this one looks interesting:
Not Altogether Human: Pantheism and the Dark Nature of the American Renaissance: Richard Hardack: 9781558499577: Books - Amazon.ca