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Why put idols by the non-believers in a house built for worship of ONE-GOD?

The Emperor of Mankind

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
paarsurrey said:

Is it fair on the part of non-believers?
If yes, why?
If not, what is the recourse to reinstate it to the original position?
Please
Regards

_______
#601 paarsurrey
Click to expand...

Neither because this is begging the question that the Pagan temple which would become Masjid al-Haram was originally built for the worship of the Abrahamic god. There's no reason to believe this is the case - only Islamic confirmation bias.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true - perhaps they did it because worship of the Abrahamic god fell out of favour with the Arabs? If Muslims were justified in seizing the temple and turning it into a mosque in the first place, would Pagans be justified in seizing it back and restoring the Grand Mosque to being a Pagan temple?
 
Last edited:
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
A Greased Scotsman said:
Neither because this is begging the question that the Pagan temple which would become Masjid al-Haram was originally built for the worship of the Abrahamic god. There's no reason to believe this is the case - only Islamic confirmation bias.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true - perhaps they did it because worship of the Abrahamic god fell out of favour with the Arabs? If Muslims were justified in seizing the temple and turning it into a mosque in the first place, would Pagans be justified in seizing it back and restoring the Grand Mosque to being a Pagan temple?
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Nah man, they're gonna build a new Pagan Temple in Poland.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
von bek said:
Serious question. What evidence, OUTSIDE THE QUR'AN, is there for the actual builders of the Kaaba?
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No other proof is essentially needed.

The Meccans knew it traditionally, generation after generation. Kaaba was a place to be visited by the Arabs for performing Hajj once in a lunar year and Umra at other times. Hajj is name of a month in which this pilgrimage was/is made from pre-Muhmmad times. Quran points it out:

[3:97] Surely, the first House founded for mankind is that at Becca, abounding in blessings and a guidance for all peoples.
[3:98] In it are manifest Signs; it is the place of Abraham; and whoso enters it, enters peace. And pilgrimage to the House is a duty which men — those who can find a way thither — owe to Allah. And whoever disbelieves, let him remember that Allah is surely independent of all creatures.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Regards
 
EtuMalku

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
paarsurrey said:
No other proof is essentially needed.

The Meccans knew it traditionally, generation after generation. Kaaba was a place to be visited by the Arabs for performing Hajj once in a lunar year and Umra at other times. Hajj is name of a month in which this pilgrimage was/is made from pre-Muhmmad times. Quran points it out:

[3:97] Surely, the first House founded for mankind is that at Becca, abounding in blessings and a guidance for all peoples.
[3:98] In it are manifest Signs; it is the place of Abraham; and whoso enters it, enters peace. And pilgrimage to the House is a duty which men — those who can find a way thither — owe to Allah. And whoever disbelieves, let him remember that Allah is surely independent of all creatures.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Regards
Click to expand...
Pre-Islamic Arab tribes, each consisting of their own version of a prior polytheistic religion, used the Kaaba to join together once a year and commune. It wasn't until the takeover of Islam did any of that change. Idols were destroyed and the black meteorite that symbolized Al-Lah (minus his consort al-Lat) became THE focal point.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
von bek said:
I was hoping for some archaeological evidence, or at least a literary or oral tradition that was independent of Muslim chroniclers.
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Bible mentions it:

"Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. (From the NIV Bible, Psalms 84:5-6)"

"The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. (The Noble Quran, 3:96-97)"
Paran in the Bible is Mecca today - See the Archeological discoveries that prove Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia.
Please
Regards
 
EtuMalku

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
paarsurrey said:
The Meccans were not pagans, they believed in God they called Allah, but associated partners with Him. The pagans don't believe in Allah. Do they?
Regards
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By 'pagans' I am assuming we are talking about the numerous polytheistic tribes prior to the Islamic take over? The word 'pagan' wasn't in use yet and its meaning does not reflect pre-Islamic Arabia.

Allah (al-Lah 'the god') and his consort al-Lat (the goddess) were thought of as Creator deities much along the same lines as the Egyptian Khnum, Ptah and Ra. al-Lah began his life as a Moon deity as did al-Lat.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
EtuMalku said:
By 'pagans' I am assuming we are talking about the numerous polytheistic tribes prior to the Islamic take over? The word 'pagan' wasn't in use yet and its meaning does not reflect pre-Islamic Arabia.
Allah (al-Lah 'the god') and his consort al-Lat (the goddess) were thought of as Creator deities much along the same lines as the Egyptian Khnum, Ptah and Ra. al-Lah began his life as a Moon deity as did al-Lat.
Click to expand...
The word pagan as one has admitted was not in use then so it has no relevance to the Meccans who were from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. Please
Regards
 
EtuMalku

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
paarsurrey said:
The word pagan as one has admitted was not in use then so it has no relevance to the Meccans who were from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. Please
Regards
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There is no mention of Mecca or the Meccans until 741 AD and it was from this Islamic viewpoint that the beginnings of Mecca were attributed to Ishmael's descendants, however the Byzantine-Arab Chronicle places it in Mesopotamia rather than the Hejaz.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
EtuMalku said:
There is no mention of Mecca or the Meccans until 741 AD and it was from this Islamic viewpoint that the beginnings of Mecca were attributed to Ishmael's descendants, however the Byzantine-Arab Chronicle places it in Mesopotamia rather than the Hejaz.
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One is wrong. Mecca/Becca is mentioned in Quran much before 741 AD:
Muhammd
Born Muḥammad ibn `Abdullāh (Arabic: مُحَمَّد بِن عَبد الله‎‎)
c. 570
Mecca, Hejaz, Arabia
(present-day Saudi Arabia)
Died 8 June 632 (aged c. 62)
Medina, Hejaz, Arabia
(present-day Saudi Arabia)
Cause of death Fever[1]
Muhammad - Wikipedia
Regards
 
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