Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Everything we think is influenced by personal beliefs and feelings so there is no such thing as 'pure' objectivity.
the fact of being based on facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings:
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Why should a Christian even look into Islam as a Possible true Faith?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
the fact of being based on facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
In certain regards they contradict each other, but each one of those religions contain truth so in that sense they are both right, although not fully correct.
From a Baha'i perspective, those religions were both right in their original form. It is humans who have corrupted those religions over time.
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171
What I would say is that 55% are following a religion that has been corrupted by man so it is not fully accurate.
What do you mean by objective evidence? Objective evidence of what?
What do you mean by objective evidence? Objective evidence of what?
"lacking any objective reason to assume they are not false" is not an argument from ignorance.
An argument from ignorance is:
Asserting a religion is true because it has not been proven false or ...
Asserting that a religion is false because it has not been proven true.
Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false.
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia
So basically, in summery, you are not accepting Baha'u'llah as a Messenger from God. You are offering that your interpretations of the Qur'an are based on a greater knowledge than what Baha'u'llah possessed.
The observation we can agree upon, is that has happened to every messenger.
Baha'u'llah quotes the Qur'an 36:29 in support of His Message.
“O the misery of men! No Messenger cometh unto them but they laugh Him to scorn!”
Do you think you, or any of us in fact, are exempt from this warning?
Regards Tony
I believe your Prophet's interpretations are impossible with anyone who is honest to himself about the Quran. Just as you don't believe the Maitreya can be possibly a Prophet, the same with me with your Prophet.
That is God's bounty. Freewill choices.
I beleive I am very honest with myself about the Quran. It is the Word of Allah, our One God. I am also honest with myself that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God.
I do not need to accuse others of being dishonest about their view of their scriptures, I appreciate that we all have different frames of references.
Regards Tony
Truthfulness is God's sword, it cuts of all that is false. I don't believe you wield that sword, but will pray that you do. In reality it emanates from the Imam of time who is God's sword and the Imam lives within all souls as well as beyond them. Being truthful is but to embrace God's Name in the outward to the inward, unseen and seen, written Quran and living reminder of Quran in the spiritual world. It cuts off Satanic uncleanness and is a means to defeat Satan and his army and cut them and slice them as well.
Imam calls inwardly to God now and is the spirit of God's command which is a light by which God guides who he wishes through, and on the day of judgment, he will call with a loud enough cry by truth to the souls he is responsible over, and everyone will be aware of his reality and connection to God and what reality they were connected to all this time. Each person will have a leader being called by him towards God, a driver and a witness from God, the right handed companion talked about in Surah Qaaf. As for left handed companion, it was a Jinn from Satan, and those who called other than God and worshipped Jinn will not be saved by their left handed companion who they sought guidance from as a guardian god or angel or spirit guide in this world.
Holy war has been struck from the Book. The Sword is Word that is given by all the Messengers.
Trustworthiness and Truthfulness is the core teaching given by Baha'u'llah. Serving humanity in preference to self the goal of all who are true to this faith. Embracing the Oneness of God and humaity our goal. The elimination of predudices of race, gender and religion our guide. Justice for all people with access to education, shelter and their basic needs met our aim.
That is the fruit that is of God, that is the fruit passed on by Baha'u'llah and yet you desire it be cut off because on interpretationof scriprures?
I hope you can see the error in that logic.
Regards Tony
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
In other words, it took a lot of time to convince you.
Do you think if you had come across objective evidence initially, it would require that long?
When you started your investigation, were you practicing another faith at the time?
If so, was it an Abrahamic faith?
I think not so much an assumption as a provisional hypothesis to be tested and often rejected if insufficient corroborating evidence is found to support it.
It must also outperform competing hypotheses.
Also in science and math, the goal of testing a hypothesis is to prove it wrong (as opposed to proving it right) — and only if repeated attempts from multiple sources (including adversarial positions) only find evidence to further support the hypothesis can it be considered to “prove” the hypothesis to be correct.
This of course is always subject to further review?
Let us not forget that in order to initially form a decent provisional hypothesis, it’s required that there is observations or data present (preferably well established) that is not answered by presently held solutions that warrants the hypothesis.
This is very different from what you describe….
Starting with an assumption and subjectively search for evidence to support that assumption independent of objective verification.
Correct it requires starting from a neutral point, and being diligent in reserving final judgment until such time as objective evidence is presented, which precludes presuppositional assumptions, and a skeptical analysis of evidence presented.
Nobody said rationality was easy.
I’m sorry similes and flawed analogies don’t work well for me particularly when they only amount to a deepity.
The obvious answer is to not apply the veils (assumptions) in the first place, thereby avoiding those false learnings to begin with.
That is precisely the inherent nature of starting with assumptions.
So in answer to the question;…
Yes, that is a very subjective evidence approach which in itself demonstrates the inadvisability of it.
So, I was correct in my doubt.
Perhaps if you were to apply the previously mentioned “outsiders test of faith” it might help.
Your perception of it requires your faith’s view of
what do y’all call it…”progressive revelation”?
From an unbiased “outsider’s” view….
all those religions and their adherents exist today; in this case Sunday. (at least where I am, if you were in Tokyo or Perth it would be Monday)
Let me give a stab at an analogy from an “outside” perspective;
All these religions mentioned are different plants that were germinated at slightly different times and are in different stages of growth.
(Here we can use the life cycle of plants as our arbitrary start/stop point…. in my opinion more valid that your sunrise to sunset time period)
Judaism is a fairly established plant with a full root system, branches, and leaves.
Christianity is not as far along in it’s life cycle, but already much larger.
It’s root system is still expanding, but already larger.
It has branches with stems and fully sprouted leaves.
Islam is even younger in it’s life cycle, but showing signs (based on it’s rate of growth) of being at least as large if not larger.
It’s in a rapid growth stage.
It’s roots are expanding, it’s branches while not as plentiful are rather sturdy and has leaves that are nearly fully unfurled.
Baha’i is but a seedling.
It has a single stem emerged from the ground and does not yet have branches or leaves.
All of these are in the same garden along with multiple other plants of different varieties.
All of these plants are vying for nutrients in the soil, space, sunshine, and moisture.
All subject to insects and other predatory life forms (fungus etc).
All subject to the same weather
All competing for survival.
There are multiple factors that would play into how well each plant may survive.
The day of the week would have no bearing on their likely of being a viable plant.
Again, only when applying your presupposition of your “insider” view.
From the “outsider” view, all the patients have the same ailment.
(the human condition, the desire for “salvation/enlightenment”, the same “need for purpose/meaning in life”, etc)
Yet the man they go to see (not knowing if he is actually a doctor) gives them all different diagnosis and treatment protocols.
No.
That particular veil is one you have erected with your assumption that your faith is correct.
(see above)
Actually not.
Saying all religions are manmade systems isn’t a “claim to know”.
It is well documented and well understood that throughout history that all verifiable objective evidence points to religions be the products of human minds.
It is understood that humans attribute agency where none exist.
Ever hear of Cargo Cults for a simple example?
As you have conceded, their is no objective evidence that any of the religions were the product of gods.
So on one side, we have objective documented evidence.
On the other we have none.
There is no bias necessary to follow the actual evidence.
It’s simply a statement of the known circumstances.
Since I haven’t hung any veils,…
I have no difficulty seeing the light.
Does that include the Quran?
Salam
You guys are left with words. But words have never been enough. What is needed is people to unite on a living leader among us.
وَكَذَٰلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ رُوحًا مِنْ أَمْرِنَا ۚ مَا كُنْتَ تَدْرِي مَا الْكِتَابُ وَلَا الْإِيمَانُ وَلَٰكِنْ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُورًا نَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ نَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۚ وَإِنَّكَ لَتَهْدِي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ | Thus have We imbued you with a Spirit of Our command. You did not know what the Book is, nor what is faith; but We made it a light that We may guide by its means whomever We wish of Our servants. Indeed, you guide to a straight path, | Ash-Shura : 52
A leader present among people was not even enough. What is needed is people get connected to the leader in the spiritual world, through that spirit of God's Authority/Command, they will be guided, through that light, they will be guided.
One of the differences between my religion and yours, is that in mine, there is a living guide and leader.
People who see the leader and guide and travel towards God through his light and are guided by his companionship and company, these cannot be compared to the blind who talk about the light from a far place.
That is an incorrect observation.
We are connected to the Spiritual Leader, Baha'u'llah, which is all the Messengers (including Muhammad), through the guidance of the elected 9 members of the Universal House of Justice.
So that is exactly what happens through the Universal House of Justice we get connected to the leader in the spiritual world, through that spirit of God's Authority/Command and are through that light, we are guided.
This is what this OP is all about. Anything you can raise in support of your Faith, can also be raised in support of Christianity, or in this case the Baha'i Faith and indeed all Faiths that are from God.
Regards Tony
It's not, from what I recall, the last guide/leader you had was Shokh Efendi.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, I can say so.
Recognition of truth, in Baha'i Faith, is like putting pieces of puzzle together.
It is like investigating and finding all the missing pieces of a Puzzle, that when all pieces put together, the complete image, is seen, and understood in the mind.
Thus, there are many objective evidences, or "Signs" that I came across initially, but took time, to gather all the missing pieces.
Let me say this: recognition of truth, is meant to be very difficult. It is meant to be the most difficult thing in the world. And purposefully is made difficult by God.
Understanding its purpose, however is part of solving a difficult puzzle itself.
I was born in a family that are Baha'is. But when I was in my early 20s, I wasn't practicing Bahai Faith. I wasn't simply a practicing Baha'i. I was into other things. At some point, when I was in my early 30s, I asked myself, that if I start from a neutral point, will I come to the conclusion that Baha'i Faith is from God?
I wanted to test it. So that was when I started. Of course within 5 years, I knew enough to realize that, it is true. But even after that, to this day, which I am 49, I am still learning knew things, and it only increased my certainty.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes.
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
They contradict each other in the key fundamentals of what distinguishes them from one another, which is why they are different religions.
The Baha’i perspective is irrelevant to them and everybody else….. save Baha’is
And, if you’ll recall the gist of this thread was to see things from “outside” of ones accepted perspective.
In other words…false
And why leave out the other 44.85%?
Aren’t they also “not fully accurate”? i.e. false.
I’m fully aware of Baha’i’s penchant for equivocation, obfuscation, and selective interpretation of others religions views.
So I’ll gracefully bow out of engaging in semantics.
As an aside….
What is it with some Baha’i (yourself included) constantly posting lengthy quotes of Baha’i scriptures…..
Are you under the assumption that they are somehow influential to anybody other than Baha’i faithful?
As was plainly stated…accuracy of their religions.
Again, plainly stated….that they are true.
Concerning objective evidence;….
We’ve had this conversation before.
Granted, it was some time ago.
Perhaps you’ve forgotten.
However, I see you’re using the same link and edited portion of that link to post in an attempt to obfuscate the actual meaning and description of “objective evidence”……
It’s like deja vu.
It almost looks like you copied and pasted it from that previous conversation.
As you did before you edited out and ignored the salient point that it depicts as distinguishing between “subjective” and “objective” evidence.
Here is the portion you chose to ignore that occurs as the opening description of objective evidence, just prior to the section of the quote you chose to portray…..
“Objective evidence is evidence that we base on provable facts. In other words, we can prove the facts by measurement, analysis, and observation. It is possible to evaluate and examine objective evidence. It means the same as ‘compelling evidence.’”
Then comes the part you posted.
Which is the beginning of an entire story that spells out the difference between the two where the doctor only has subjective evidence when he only has the patient’s word about his ailment, which is illustrated in this easy yo understand graphic.
(The bold portion I highlighted to show where the selected portion you posted gets it’s relevance.)
And here is the part you also chose to ignore which follows directly after the story and graphic…(the accent is not mine…it’s from the article you linked: Do pay attention to the last paragraph)“Objective evidence is irrefutable
If the evidence is objective, it is irrefutable. If somebody has objective evidence that the law of gravity is true, it means that they have proved it.Choosing not to believe compelling proof about the law of gravity does not make it false. Therefore, if I jump out of a third-floor window, I am still going to fall.
If I have faith in my religion, I am basing that faith on subjective evidence. Devout Christians, Mormons, Jews, and Muslims base their faith on subjective evidence.”
Any of this ringing a bell?
Since we’ve all ready gone over this, I see no point in re-hashing it any further.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
how do you know He did not? You have a supposition here, and seems you just took it as true. You need to prove this!
yes, and you do not have an answer to this question, do you?
How was the Quran protected from changes? Did God protect it, or people on their own?
that is a question for you. Why do you ask me.
remember, you have a claim. You claim that, in the Bible, God had originally revealed verses that clearly showed Christianity is not Final, and that another Prophet, by the name Muhammad comes after Jesus.
you need to prove this, otherwise your whole belief is based on assumptions (ظن)
How do you know He did not?
It is you, who claim, that God did not protect His Book.
let me ask this question another why:
Remember, in the Quran, it says, that if Muhammad who is the Messenger, was to add anything from Himself to the Quran, Allah will kill Muhammad. Correct?
If Allah, was so concerned about His Book, to the point that He says, if Muhammad adds anything to it, He would kill His own Messenger, why, then Allah allowed others, to distort the verses of the Bible, those so important verses that were to lead Christians and Jews to Quran?
Was God incapable? was God careless? Was God unaware? Do you see how your belief falls apart, my friend?
You need to be able to logically explain it, or it is a false idea, that, originated from some of the Ulama, and you are just accepting it without a reason.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Here is again another assumption, your belief is based on.
How do you know, or what proof do you have, that, the 11th Imam had a son, and He is still alive physically, but hidden somewhere on the earth?
All I see, is you made certain beliefs, based on certain interpretation of the Quran. Rememeber, I posted many verses from the Bible, that clearly says, Jesus, Son of God, is the Last One, and the only way. You have not shown, why then God sent Quran, when the Bible clearly says, it is Final. Then you came up with the idea that, the Bible has become distorted, yet, you are not able to prove this, or show how God allowed that to happen. Do you see how all your beliefs are made on top of assumptions, that there is no evidence or proof, whatsoever?
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
To be fair, this appears to be highly subjective.
And, could easily be a description of brainwashing that you queried about in your OP.
Furthermore, don’t most brainwashed people fail to recognize or realize that they have been brainwashed while they are?
I’ve never found this to be true.
I have witnessed where it’s difficult for some religious people to contort their inner monologue in mind boggling fashion in order to ignore or manage to overlook obvious objective facts in order to soothe their conscious mind against the subconscious turmoil caused by the facts being in conflict with their presuppositional position and seeking to rationalize it satisfactorily in their own mind’s “truth”.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Why?
How?
They do.
That's understandable. Why do you think, truth is something that would easily be found?
The more precious, the more difficult to get. Isn't truth, the most precious thing?
the truth, sets you free.
There are many religious beliefs. I see you are making a generalized conclusion here.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This is a claim you are making. But how can be sure that you are not veiled from the truth?
Do you consider the possibility, that this may not the case, and there could be many veils preventing you from seeing truth, but you may not be aware of them?
Here is one:
"Among these “veils of glory” are the divines and doctors living in the days of the Manifestation of God..." Baha'u'llah
Do you know how the divines and doctors (i.e. Religious Leaders) are one the main veils?
It is because, they have interpreted Religion falsely according to their own wishful ideas. Thus, you, learn Religion or you understand Religion based on an understanding which is current among adherents of that Religion. Hence, since, the Religious leaders have taught Religious truth incorrect, you, see Religion as false, not knowing that, the Original Religion as revealed by God, was not false, but what you have learned about Religion is false.