Why should a Christian even look into Islam as a Possible true Faith?

[Trailblazer]

They contradict each other in the key fundamentals of what distinguishes them from one another, which is why they are different religions.
The Baha’i perspective is irrelevant to them and everybody else….. save Baha’is

They differ from each other in certain key fundamentals which distinguishes them from one another, which is why they are different religions.
All the differences are not contradictions and although there are some contradictions those contradictions are because of the various interpretations of scriptures, all of which are not necessarily accurate.

Yes, I know that the Baha’i perspective is irrelevant to them and everybody else except Baha'is.

And, if you’ll recall the gist of this thread was to see things from “outside” of ones accepted perspective.

As an outsider, are you looking from outside your perspective? Why is your perspective any more relevant than mine?

In other words…false
And why leave out the other 44.85%?
Aren’t they also “not fully accurate”? i.e. false.

I did not sat that they are false. I said I believe they are not fully accurate.

I’m fully aware of Baha’i’s penchant for equivocation, obfuscation, and selective interpretation of others religions views.
So I’ll gracefully bow out of engaging in semantics.

Do you mean our interpretation of what they consider their scriptures? They don't own those scriptures so anyone can interpret them.
Likewise, anyone is free to interpret the Baha'i scriptures.

As an aside….
What is it with some Baha’i (yourself included) constantly posting lengthy quotes of Baha’i scriptures…..
Are you under the assumption that they are somehow influential to anybody other than Baha’i faithful?

I don't post them because I think they are influential. I only post them to convey what I believe.
Why do Christians and Muslims post their scriptures?

As was plainly stated…accuracy of their religions.

Again, plainly stated….that they are true.

There is no objective evidence that proves that any religion is true.

Concerning objective evidence;….

We’ve had this conversation before.
Granted, it was some time ago.
Perhaps you’ve forgotten.
However, I see you’re using the same link and edited portion of that link to post in an attempt to obfuscate the actual meaning and description of “objective evidence”……
It’s like deja vu.
It almost looks like you copied and pasted it from that previous conversation.

I save what I write in Word documents if I think I will use it later.

As you did before you edited out and ignored the salient point that it depicts as distinguishing between “subjective” and “objective” evidence.

Here is the portion you chose to ignore that occurs as the opening description of objective evidence, just prior to the section of the quote you chose to portray…..

“Objective evidence is evidence that we base on provable facts. In other words, we can prove the facts by measurement, analysis, and observation. It is possible to evaluate and examine objective evidence. It means the same as ‘compelling evidence.’”

I did not choose to ignore that, it just was not pertinent to what I was talking about when contrasting objective and subjective evidence.
There is more than one definition of objective evidence so my definition was valid.

“Objective evidence is irrefutable
If the evidence is objective, it is irrefutable. If somebody has objective evidence that the law of gravity is true, it means that they have proved it.

Choosing not to believe compelling proof about the law of gravity does not make it false. Therefore, if I jump out of a third-floor window, I am still going to fall.

If I have faith in my religion, I am basing that faith on subjective evidence. Devout Christians, Mormons, Jews, and Muslims base their faith on subjective evidence.”

I have faith in my religion and I am basing that faith on evidence.
I don't want to hear the bunk about how only objective evidence is real evidence... been there done that.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

How I interpret that evidence is subjective.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

Objective evidence is proof because it establishes something as a fact. The Law of Gravity is a fact since it has been proven objectively.
You know that if you jump out of a third-floor window, you are going to fall.

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

 

[Nakosis]

Yes.

Then why should Muslims question whether their religion is false?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Then why should Muslims question whether their religion is false?

Islam is one thing, and Quran another thing. This thread is about, "how to get from the Bibe to Quran". It is about the proper understanding rather than just blindly imitating. There is a difference if one accepts Quran, just because they were born in a Muslim family, than, if the person actually investigated and has come to a fair conclusion for himself "unbiased"

 

[Link]

@InvestigateTruth you say all holy books are protected, bring me Ibrahim's (a), Ismail's (a), Isaac's (a), and so on forth. Heck, I will make one after Musa (a). Bring me Haroun's (a) book. You can't.

So you just talking non-sense.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This is applicable to all Faiths. Even a Muslim would not object to the core teachings of the Baha'i Faith, as these are shared across all Faiths. Love, Justice, Truthfulness, Trustworthiness, service to each other as one family etc.

Those are also values important to humanists with no religion at all, who seem to do a better job of being honest, loving, trustworthy and just. Look at how the Abrahamics view homosexuals. There's nothing loving or just there.

You guys are left with words. But words have never been enough.

Agreed, which is why I have rejected all religions and their claims. They only have words.

I did not say that they are false. I said I believe they are not fully accurate.

That's a reason to not believe any of it. There is no test but empiricism to determine which parts to accept and which to reject, and for those that use this method to determine truth, there is no need to look at scripture before examining the world to see how it works.

When I say, "I cannot prove it to others but, it is proved to me", I mean it takes too much to prove it to others.

If you can't demonstrate your reason for your beliefs to a lay person quickly and easily, why should he believe you know anything at all? They're just religious claims, not calculus.

even in science or math or Geomatry, we can first make an assumption, then later prove that assumption was a correct assumption. Nothing is wrong with that approach.

We don't make assumptions in either mathematics or science. Nothing is believed to be correct that has not been convincingly shown to be.

The truth, is like the Sun, behind a thousand thick veils. Eyes cannot see it, until the veils are removed. The veils are those false learnings current among mankind, which is taken as true. Once those veils are removed, truth is manifested.

You're describing the path to indoctrination. Veils are not being removed. They're being placed. Isn't that why it took you so long to see what you call truth now? Truth is generally easy to discern from the evidence. It may have been a herculean effort to built the Large Hadron Collider which followed a herculean effort to arrive at the place where one understood that it was needed and what it might show, but once the right cloud chamber phot was found, the truth jumped out of it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@InvestigateTruth you say all holy books are protected, bring me Ibrahim's (a), Ismail's (a), Isaac's (a), and so on forth. Heck, I will make one after Musa (a). Bring me Haroun's (a) book. You can't.

So you just talking non-sense.

Notice that in older Ages, methods of Writing was not yet established and possible the way, it was established in later Ages. So, in old Ages the Messages or Teachings were memorized and transmitted orally to the next Generation. Those oral Revelations, were the Book.
Every Messenger's Book, must have been protected at least upto the next Messenger. Abraham's Book, certainly endured till Moses. Certainly Abraham had Prophesied about Moses, in the same way that, Moses Prophesied about Jesus, and in the same way that Jesus Prophesied about Muhammad, and so forth.

The none existence of a written Book of Abraham in our Age, is not a proof that, His Book or Prophecies did not survive until the next Age.
However, later, when Moses came, at that time, Torah was written, as it was a newer Age, thus, there was no need for God, that the Messages of Abraham be written for later Ages. As the Prophecies of later Ages, were given in Torah.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus clearly said, No one comes to the Father except through Me. As Bible also says, clearly Jesus is Son of God. He died for the sins of others. As long as one believes in Jesus, he or she will be in heaven.
Beside this, there is no where in the Bible that says, after Jesus, God will reveal another Book called Quran through a Prophet called Muhammad from Arabia.
Jesus taught Love. After Him, no need for a false prophet to come and teach war.

So, three things for the Muslims to respond:

1. Do you even consider that your religion can be false? When did Jesus say, Muhammad comes. He warned there will be many false prophets.

2. Why should even a Christian believe for one Moment Islam can even possibly be true religion, when clearly Jesus said He is the only way to the Father. He clearly said, that He is the only Son of God?

3. Do you even care to have an answer to these questions, or you are just so sure that your religion is true, and you go to heaven. Do you consider that, your beliefs could just be based on Geographical location or family, and that from childhood you were brainwashed to believe Islam is true? Maybe you were brainwashed, how do you know?

I want to see how Muslims respond to these questions?

I believe even though aimed at Muslims, as a Christian I can answer those questions.

1. at one time before I read the Qu'ran I though Islam might be false because of some oblique verses in the book of Daniel. I read the Qu'ran with the help of the Holy Spirit and found it to be the Word of God.

2. I believe as in all religions Islam had some truth and some falsehood. For instance the idea that a convert to Christianity from Islam ought to be killed is straight from Iblis (The devil).

3. I believe I always go with what is reasonable as the Holy Spirit leads me to understand things.

 

[2ndpillar]

You don't think that the idea that Yeshua should die for the nation has anything to do with the crucifixion?

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
John 11:49-51

According to you, the Jews, should like their brethren, Israel, eat the flesh and blood of an innocent man, instead of killing innocent children, as did Israel, all while sacrificing to their "Lord", which is a translation of Baal/Bel, and is done by modern women, who on cue, eat the body and blood of an innocent man every week, without blinking an eye? Why don't you use the symbol of a spear? Do people necessarily die when they are pierced? I know a girl who has been pierced around a half a dozen times, and she still goes to work with double nose rings. Keep in mind that Judah was given a chance to repent instead of being "cursed" (Malachi 4:4-6). Keep in mind that John the Baptist (Elijah) said the wrath to come was for those who did not repent and produce good fruit (Mt 3). If the Pharisees didn't produce good fruit, what was the value of their fruit, which was hypocrisy/leaven? As for Caiaphas, King Saul was also anointed, and yet his focus was on killing David, the father of Yeshua, and apparently, he was possessed and needed music for him to calm down. You consider Paul as being anointed and a prophet of God, yet here he is a false prophet. When Yeshua was touched by the sick person, he felt their pain at that time, and they were healed. Elijah healed the sick and raised the dead, and no one was required to be either be hung or be pierced.

You're describing the path to indoctrination. Veils are not being removed. They're being placed. Isn't that why it took you so long to see what you call truth now? Truth is generally easy to discern from the evidence. It may have been a herculean effort to built the Large Hadron Collider which followed a herculean effort to arrive at the place where one understood that it was needed and what it might show, but once the right cloud chamber phot was found, the truth jumped out of it.

The idol of the scientist of the Hadron collider is the statue of the "destroyer" outside of their front office. They are now looking at producing a black hole, which could wind up destroying the earth. Their efforts at "understanding" have fallen short and have only raised questions. Is there a "God" particle or not, and what does it mean. They apparently have found a particle, but what does it mean in the realm of anything?

 

[2ndpillar]

Jesus, and in the same way that Jesus Prophesied about Muhammad, and so forth.

Yeshua prophesied about "false prophets" (Mt 7:12=15), not about some unknown person called "the praised one" (Mohammad). According to the Islamic narrative, this "Mohammad" was called Gutham, son of a slave of the moon god, one of the gods of the Nabateans. The Nabateans, worldwide traders, worked out of Petra, not a non existent world trading center located in a desolate wilderness called Becca, one time, in the Koran, a book taken from the narratives of Christian and the Jews. The descriptions given to this home of this Muhammad, does not jive with the present area of Mecca. Of all the early pre 7th century maps, Mecca did not exist. According to independent accounts, Mohammad, nor the term Islam existed prior to around 60 years after the death of Muhammad, in any independent accounts. The narrative of Muhammad and Mecca, started to be written, mostly by Persians, 100 years after his supposed un prophesized death by a disgruntled woman. Historically, most Muslims could not read, and even today, they can't read the Koran in the original language, which had no vowels or dots, and could be read in many ways, and apparently, looking at the different sects, is read in many ways.

 

[Link]

Notice that in older Ages, methods of Writing was not yet established and possible the way, it was established in later Ages. So, in old Ages the Messages or Teachings were memorized and transmitted orally to the next Generation. Those oral Revelations, were the Book.
Every Messenger's Book, must have been protected at least upto the next Messenger. Abraham's Book, certainly endured till Moses. Certainly Abraham had Prophesied about Moses, in the same way that, Moses Prophesied about Jesus, and in the same way that Jesus Prophesied about Muhammad, and so forth.

The none existence of a written Book of Abraham in our Age, is not a proof that, His Book or Prophecies did not survive until the next Age.
However, later, when Moses came, at that time, Torah was written, as it was a newer Age, thus, there was no need for God, that the Messages of Abraham be written for later Ages. As the Prophecies of later Ages, were given in Torah.

You are doing special pleading.

What about Aaron's (a) book? Where is it.

 

[Link]

And what I mean by special pleading. Abraham's (a) book and prophets from his ahlulbayt, before Musa (a), say it survived all those books. IF they can write down Musa (a) book, why not those books? And if people could've narrated it all orally till then, why not God safeguard all books.

You see, it's special pleading now.

 

[Ebionite]

According to you, the Jews, should like their brethren, Israel, eat the flesh and blood of an innocent man, instead of killing innocent children, as did Israel, all while sacrificing to their "Lord", which is a translation of Baal/Bel, and is done by modern women, who on cue, eat the body and blood of an innocent man every week, without blinking an eye?

No, that's absurd. If you follow the warning about ignorance in Hosea to it's logical conclusion in Habakkuk you end up with a warning about the Pauline communion. This warning is emphasized by the religious events of the Great Disappointment of 1844. Shiraz associates with wine and Morse's verse associates with the heraldic animals of England, where the head of state is the "Supreme Governor" of the Church of England. The English communion is shared with the Roman one, even though the language of the ritual differed regarding the reference to death.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are doing special pleading.

What about Aaron's (a) book? Where is it.

Notice that, for each Age, a New Revelation comes. For the Age of Moses, Torah was given. Aaron was brother of Moses and his mission was only to help Moses. Aaron in not the Founder of Religion. Moses is.

 

[2ndpillar]

No, that's absurd. If you follow the warning about ignorance in Hosea to it's logical conclusion in Habakkuk you end up with a warning about the Pauline communion. This warning is emphasized by the religious events of the Great Disappointment of 1844. Shiraz associates with wine and Morse's verse associates with the heraldic animals of England, where the head of state is the "Supreme Governor" of the Church of England. The English communion is shared with the Roman one, even though the language of the ritual differed regarding the reference to death.

Until you mentioned it, I wasn't aware of Baha's false prophecy of 1844. As for eating the flesh and blood of an innocent man, that seems prevalent of all the Christians, and with respect to the Baha's accepting the dogmas of the Christians, well, that would be on them. The "bread of life" is not composed of flesh and blood but is the Word of God (Mt 4:4). As for the Jews, they were to initially place the blood of the lamb on their lintels on the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and later to post the Words of God, the Commandments on their lintels, which was used to turn away the angels of death. The Christians now supposedly eat the flesh and blood of an innocent man, somewhat like the Mayans, and think they are now saved from the coming angels of the LORD. I think not. Christians are not even saved from other "Christians".

 

[Ebionite]

Until you mentioned it, I wasn't aware of Baha's false prophecy of 1844.

False or not, it is a significant event for the end times.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The idol of the scientist of the Hadron collider is the statue of the "destroyer" outside of their front office.

That's Shiva. I guess that you find that significant. I find it beautiful.

Why does CERN have a statue of Shiva?​

The Shiva statue was a gift from India to celebrate its association with CERN, which started in the 1960’s and remains strong today. In the Hindu religion, Lord Shiva practiced Nataraj dance which symbolises Shakti, or life force. This deity was chosen by the Indian government because of a metaphor that was drawn between the cosmic dance of the Nataraj and the modern study of the ‘cosmic dance’ of subatomic particles. India is one of CERN’s associate member states. CERN is a multicultural organisation that welcomes scientists from more than 100 countries and 680 institutions. The Shiva statue is only one of the many statues and art pieces at CERN.​

I have ceramic statues of Ganesh and Durga in my home. Are those idols to you as well? They're art to me.

They are now looking at producing a black hole, which could wind up destroying the earth.

And how would it do that? If one takes a piece of matter and compresses it sufficiently to become a microscopic black hole, it has no more gravity than it did before it was compressed. If you compressed the sun to the size of a black hole, it would cease fusing elements and generating heat and light, but that shouldn't affect the orbits of the objects orbiting it or destroy them.

Why did you want to mention either of these things? Does science frighten you?

Their efforts at "understanding" have fallen short and have only raised questions.

They have confirmed a hypothesis, or, in the language of the faithful, they confirmed a prophecy made in the sixties, but unlike the prophecies in holy books, this one was very specific. What does that mean? It means that the science that led to predicting its existence is correct.

Is there a "God" particle or not, and what does it mean. They apparently have found a particle, but what does it mean in the realm of anything?

Yes, but that's just a catchy name for it. There is nothing godlike about it. Its scientific name is the Higgs boson, and its identification confirms the existence of the Higgs field. What that means is yours to explore and discover. Here's a start:

Why is the Higgs boson referred to as the God particle?​

The Higgs boson is the linchpin of the Standard Model of particle physics but experimental physicists weren’t able to observe it until the arrival of the LHC, nearly 50 years after the particle was first postulated. Leon Lederman coined the term ‘the God particle’ in his popular 1993 book ‘The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What is the Question?’ written with Dick Teresi. In their book, Lederman and Teresi claim the nickname originated because the publisher wouldn’t allow them to call it ‘the Goddamn Particle’ – a name that reflected the difficulty in observing the elusive boson. The name caught on through the media attention it attracted but is disliked by both clerics and scientists.​

.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

Why?

It appears very subjective when someone looks for pieces that “fit” what they are looking for….
where confirmation biases often pass over and discard those that don’t “fit” that puzzle.

How?

By recognizing what a brain so desperately seeks and then feeding that what it seeks while censoring that which runs contrary to the goal.

That's understandable. Why do you think, truth is something that would easily be found?

I was responding to what you actually said…..

Let me say this: recognition of truth, is meant to be very difficult.

Recognition of truth is not difficult, since actual truth can be objectively demonstrated, leaving only the matter of accepting that demonstrated objective evidence.
It’s seeking things that fit pre-perceptualized notions which are not demonstrable that is difficult.

The more precious, the more difficult to get. Isn't truth, the most precious thing?
the truth, sets you free.

Sounds like a presupposition to me.

There are many religious beliefs. I see you are making a generalized conclusion here.

Try to improve your reading comprehension.
I specifically said;

I have witnessed where it’s difficult for some religious people

Explain how that is a generalization.

 

[Link]

Notice that, for each Age, a New Revelation comes. For the Age of Moses, Torah was given. Aaron was brother of Moses and his mission was only to help Moses. Aaron in not the Founder of Religion. Moses is.

Yet he was a Nabi and given the book per Quran. Where is his book?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Abraham's (a) book and prophets from his ahlulbayt, before Musa (a), say it survived all those boobooks.

In every Age, when a new Revelation came by the new Prophet, most people rejected it.

Consider, in our Age, this is evident, that, Muhammad was rejected by the Jews and Christians even as you see today, there are Christians and Jews who do not believe in Muhammad, but believe in Prophets before them.

When Moses came, the situation was the same. Some of the people of that time, were believers of Abraham, but when Moses came, they rejected Moses.
in the same way, that, when Jesus came, the followers of Moses rejected Jesus.


Notice that, in our time, you can see, there are followers of Moses who do not believe in Jesus, and you can see, followers of Jesus who do not believe in Muhammad, but you do not see, any followers of Abraham in our Time. Why is it?

Is it beacuse all of the followers of Abraham, believed in Moses?
Of course not, as even Quran says, there was no Messenger that was not rejected or called a liar.



Thus, none existence of the Ummah of Abraham, was because, as centuries and Ages passes, an Ummah eventually disappears. If, the Ummah of Abraham had survived till later times, they would have assuredly written down their own scriptures eventually.
But, notice that, even at the Time of Muhammad or Jesus, there was not anyone who said I believe in Abraham, but i do not believe in later Messengers. This tells us, that the generations or Ummah of Abraham had been disappeared, thus, there was no need for God to cause His prophecies survive.
but in our Time, there are Jews and Christians. Their Scriptures are required for them to be guided.

IF they can write down Musa (a) book, why not those books? And if people could've narrated it all orally till then, why not God safeguard all books.

Regardless if the Book of Abraham was eventually written or not, its teachings and prophecies could not have been corrupted or disappeared before end of the age, it was assigned to by God.

I quote from Quran :

"We did send messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children: and it was never the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book (revealed)" 13:38

You see, it's special pleading now.

How?

 

[Dao Hao Now]

This is a claim you are making. But how can be sure that you are not veiled from the truth?

By only accepting that which can be objectively demonstrated.

Do you consider the possibility, that this may not the case, and there could be many veils preventing you from seeing truth, but you may not be aware of them?

Is this the sort of claptrap that made you doubt yourself until you managed to find your puzzle pieces that “fit” and convinced you?
A case in point….

"Among these “veils of glory” are the divines and doctors living in the days of the Manifestation of God..." Baha'u'llah

Do you know how the divines and doctors (i.e. Religious Leaders) are one the main veils?
It is because, they have interpreted Religion falsely according to their own wishful ideas. Thus, you, learn Religion or you understand Religion based on an understanding which is current among adherents of that Religion. Hence, since, the Religious leaders have taught Religious truth incorrect, you, see Religion as false, not knowing that, the Original Religion as revealed by God, was not false, but what you have learned about Religion is false.