Why should a Christian even look into Islam as a Possible true Faith?

[Dao Hao Now]

What matters is whether or not objectivity is real.

Which was the original question.;

Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as objectivity?

So, apparently I have to go with both….
You’re incapable of answering which makes you unwilling to answer.
Got it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So, their belief about scripture is wrong and your belief is right.
Folks should all listen to you so you can teach them the proper understanding, that is what this thread is about?

No, it is not about that.
it is exactly about what OP, and the title of the thread says..

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It appears very subjective when someone looks for pieces that “fit” what they are looking for….

I didn't say that, we look for a piece to "fit" into a known image.
I said, when one investigates into Scriptures, we "discover" signs, that, are like pieces of a picture or puzzle. Once you investigate, you see the whole picture.
That's different than, if you already have an image, and try to make that image with pieces of puzzle. In this case, you do not know what the image looks like in the beginning. That image, is the Truth.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

By only accepting that which can be objectively demonstrated.

I claim the same thing. Why then, I have a different conclusion than you?

Is this the sort of claptrap that made you doubt yourself until you managed to find your puzzle pieces that “fit” and convinced you?

i didn't doubt. When did I say, I doubt about anything?
I only thought it would be fair to start from neutral point and see where I get.
the motivation behind it, was not "doubt", but wanting to fairly investigate what I already believed to be true. There wasn't anything in the first place that cause me to doubt.

A case in point….

Huh? Lol.

 

[Link]

No, that's your interpretation of what the seal of the prophets is. Seal can also mean a proof of authenticity.

As I said, if this was the case, it would just say Mursaleen. But that is specifies only one of the jobs that God sends the sent ones with, it makes more sense that it something specific to that. In this case, it's the end of scriptures being sent to mankind via a person.

And this is not just my interpretation, it's the interpretation of many hadiths about it. And Bahais also accept the hadith "You have the position to me as Haroun to Musa except there is no Prophet after me".

The hadith would simply say "after me until the Mahdi", if Bahai interpretation is correct.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a reason to not believe any of it. There is no test but empiricism to determine which parts to accept and which to reject, and for those that use this method to determine truth, there is no need to look at scripture before examining the world to see how it works.

I agree. There is no reason to believe any of the older religions since we cannot really know what is true and what is false, given how much they have been corrupted by man over time.

You're describing the path to indoctrination. Veils are not being removed. They're being placed.

Why do you think that veils are being placed? Who would be placing those veils?

I don't think you understand what he meant by veils.
Veils are like clouds. Just as clouds prevent people from seeing the sun, clouds in a metaphorical sense prevent people from seeing the Truth.
Below is my write-up that I post to Christians who believe that Jesus is coming down from heaven in the physical clouds.

Revelation 1:7
"Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”;and all peoples on earth 'will mourn because of him.' So shall it be! Amen."

I have my own interpretation of that verse.

Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.
One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.

Isn't that why it took you so long to see what you call truth now? Truth is generally easy to discern from the evidence.

Scientific truth is easy to discern from the evidence since it is objective evidence nobody can really deny, but evidence for religion is very different. There is evidence but the evidence is interpreted subjectively, so it means different things to different people.

All people are different so it takes longer for people to embrace the Baha'i Faith than others. I knew a man who read one page of Gleanings and became a Baha'i that day, but I know another man who was raised Catholic and it took him six years. I knew another Baha'i who did not become a Baha'i for 30 years after he heard of it. My brother read the Bible five times and then he investigated all the other religions before he became a Baha'i. I became a Baha'i in two weeks, after reading all the Baha'i books that had been published at that time. All we had were books in 1970, there was no internet. It is much easier to do research now.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where you say “as an outsider”….what do you mean?

I meant that you are not a Christian or a Muslim.

I make it a habit to look at things from as many perspectives as possible.

So do I. I do not only look at things from a Baha'i perspective.

Semantics

No, not really, since they are not false just because they are not fully accurate. There is a lot of truth in both Christianity and Islam.

Are your own words not sufficient?
As to others posting scriptures…..
That’s kind of my point.

Sometimes my own words are sufficient, sometimes not. It all depends upon what we are discussing.
In most cases, I consider it wrong as well as unnecessary to paraphrase scriptures, wen I can just as easily post them.

It appears they are often posted as authoritative references which can’t be refuted……
Do they have that effect on you?

No, I don't see them that way. They are not authoritative to anyone but the one who believes they came from God.

They certainly don’t on me.
I see them as a dependency to prevent individual thought.

Scriptures do not prevent individual thought.
I often offer my own thoughts, more often than not, and sometimes I post scriptures to explain what I believe.

Nor is there objective evidence that so much as indicates that they may be be true, let alone prove.

That is what I just said.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Why do you think that veils are being placed?

I was using his metaphor to describe the process of developing a confirmation bias, which is what I believe is what is really happening as believers dig deeper and deeper into a faith-based system and begin calling their insufficiently evidenced faith-based beliefs truth. This process takes one further from truth, which, as I use the word, and with the exception of logical and mathematical truth, is only decided empirically. If an idea can't be demonstrated to be correct, it shouldn't be called that.

Scientific truth is easy to discern from the evidence since it is objective evidence nobody can really deny, but evidence for religion is very different. There is evidence but the evidence is interpreted subjectively, so it means different things to different people.

Evidence being interpreted subjectively is what I mean by a confirmation bias, or motivated thinking intended to defend such a belief from contradictory evidence. You've seen this with the biblical apologists who cannot see contradictions in their Bible, for example, or insist that biblical prophecy is strong and clearly fulfilled when it nonspecific. And this can be called inserting veils between the truth that unbelievers see and what somebody prefers to believe.

 

[Nakosis]

No, it is not about that.
it is exactly about what OP, and the title of the thread says..

I see, so you're not trying to convince people that you are right about the Bible and Quran.

 

[Balthazzar]

I've noticed over the years how certain behaviors turn some types away from particular points of view. I have legitimately wondered if these types are not in truth enemies of professed faith. With that said, I enter these conversations, not like i once did with great fervor, but instead with an acknowledgement, such as the one I just gave. Truth, no matter where truth comes from, is still truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was using his metaphor to describe the process of developing a confirmation bias, which is what I believe is what is really happening as believers dig deeper and deeper into a faith-based system and begin calling their insufficiently evidenced faith-based beliefs truth. This process takes one further from truth, which, as I use the word, and with the exception of logical and mathematical truth, is only decided empirically. If an idea can't be demonstrated to be correct, it shouldn't be called that.

Nonbelievers have their own confirmation biases. They are biased against faith-based belief systems.
It is their confirmation bias that constitutes a veil and prevents them from seeing the truth of any religion.

Evidence being interpreted subjectively is what I mean by a confirmation bias, or motivated thinking intended to defend such a belief from contradictory evidence. You've seen this with the biblical apologists who cannot see contradictions in their Bible, for example, or insist that biblical prophecy is strong and clearly fulfilled when it nonspecific.

Evidence for religion is interpreted subjectively. Nobody is completely objective when evaluating evidence for anything.
One's personal thoughts and feelings always enter in.

You are interpreting the evidence I offer subjectively whenever you say "The passage does not sound like a Messenger of God wrote it. It sounds like a man. Any man could have written that." That is your subjective personal opinion which is based upon your confirmation bias that says there is no such thing as a scripture from God, since no God has ever been proven to exist. There is nothing objective about your opinion since it is based upon your own thoughts and feelings, it is not based upon facts.

And this can be called inserting veils between the truth that unbelievers see and what somebody prefers to believe.

I would also consider it a veil since I believe Christians are veiled from the truth about the meaning of those prophecies, but they could say the same thing about me.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I see, so you're not trying to convince people that you are right about the Bible and Quran.

Nop.

 

[Link]

As I said, if this was the case, it would just say Mursaleen. But that is specifies only one of the jobs that God sends the sent ones with, it makes more sense that it something specific to that. In this case, it's the end of scriptures being sent to mankind via a person.

And this is not just my interpretation, it's the interpretation of many hadiths about it. And Bahais also accept the hadith "You have the position to me as Haroun to Musa except there is no Prophet after me".

The hadith would simply say "after me until the Mahdi", if Bahai interpretation is correct.

To support what I'm saying here, there is a verse that talks about Mohammad (s) verifying past ones, but does not limit to just Nabis or Rasools:

بَلْ جَاءَ بِالْحَقِّ وَصَدَّقَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ | Indeed, he has brought [them] the truth, and confirmed the sent ones. | As-Saaffaat : 37

The Mursaleen includes all those sent by God.

This makes sense, since, why limit it to just verifying one type of job, when he is verifying all the type of roles the sent ones are sent with.

However, the verse about Mohammad (s) being the final Nabi, talks about him as a Messenger first, then says he is the seal of the Nabiyeen.

Also, Nabi (s) could've easily said "except there is no Mursal after me", if the Sunni interpretation is correct. The fact, that the hadiths in general (very few exceptions) always say he is the final or there is no more - with regards to the word Nabi, and not others, suggest other roles continue.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Nonbelievers have their own confirmation biases. They are biased against faith-based belief systems.

Critical thinkers have a bias, but it is not a confirmation bias. It's a bias against belief without sufficient justification. It' s a bias against collecting false and unfalsifiable beliefs.

It is their confirmation bias that constitutes a veil and prevents them from seeing the truth of any religion.

You use the word truth differently than I do. You call things truth that I would call faith-based belief. I see no truth in supernaturalism, which are thoughts about gods, afterlives, angels, demons, souls and the like

Evidence for religion is interpreted subjectively. Nobody is completely objective when evaluating evidence for anything. One's personal thoughts and feelings always enter in.

Critical thinking applied to the evidence of the senses is objective enough for me. True, when I go outside and see a yellow sun, it's actually white (it appears white from the surface of the moon, which has no atmosphere to remove and scatter the blue light), but yellow is what everybody who can see normally sees.

You are interpreting the evidence I offer subjectively whenever you say "The passage does not sound like a Messenger of God wrote it. It sounds like a man. Any man could have written that." That is your subjective personal opinion which is based upon your confirmation bias that says there is no such thing as a scripture from God. There is nothing objective about your opinion since it is based upon your own thoughts and feelings, it is not based upon facts.

That statement is based in the fact that I've seen words like those from the Messenger (as well as all other scripture in every holy book) written by other people. I could write words like those myself. Many other people could as well.

And we can demonstrate that empirically. I could ask you to pick out your ten most transcendent, godlike scriptures that you think indicate a god channeled them through a scribe rather than that he wrote them himself, I could write ten just like it, and we could give them to people unfamiliar with your scriptures and ask them which if any came from a god. I'm confident that the results would demonstrate that the two sets of statements would be indistinguishable to everybody and that the answers would be random picks.

I'd offer to give you the test myself, but it wouldn't work on the person who chose the scriptures, so I'd have to get another believer to do that for us.

But there's also the problem that you're likely familiar with what Baha'u'llah wrote and would be able to distinguish those passages from the imposter passages through prior exposure to them.

 

[Ebionite]

Which was the original question.;

No, the original question was about suggestions.

 

[Ebionite]

As I said, if this was the case, it would just say Mursaleen.

This fallacy is called a non-sequitur.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isaiah 29:11-12

An Angel came to him and asked him to read. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "Then the Angel held me (forcibly) and pressed me so hard that I felt distressed. Then he released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he held me again and pressed me for the second time till I felt distressed. He then released me and asked me to read, but again I replied. 'I do not know how to read.'

Sahih al-Bukhari 4953 - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) - كتاب التفسير - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

Yes that is indeed a prophecy pointing to Muhammad.

Notice that the seals are not removed with the Revelation of Muhammad. This could be another reason the title is applied to Muhammad in verse 33:40 of the Qur'an,
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."

Thus all the Holy Books up to and Including the Quran were sealed. Muhammad being the Seal of the Prophets, indicating that the next Messengers from God would break this seals and release the meanings.

Regards Tony

 

[2ndpillar]

Why does CERN have a statue of Shiva?
The Shiva statue was a gift from India to celebrate its association with CERN, which started in the 1960’s and remains strong today. In the Hindu religion, Lord Shiva practiced Nataraj dance which symbolises Shakti, or life force. This deity was chosen by the Indian government because of a metaphor that was drawn between the cosmic dance of the Nataraj and the modern study of the ‘cosmic dance’ of subatomic particles. India is one of CERN’s associate member states. CERN is a multicultural organisation that welcomes scientists from more than 100 countries and 680 institutions. The Shiva statue is only one of the many statues and art pieces at CERN.
I have ceramic statues of Ganesh and Durga in my home. Are those idols to you as well? They're art to me.

Well, they are idols, which is quite alright with respect to Indian culture and religion, whereas it is not alright according to the 1st Commandment given to Israel. That kind of puts a rift in your all-inclusive religion. Also, Cern is built on the historical worship site of Apollo, the sun god, probably also not kosher with the Jews, or the original followers of Yeshua.

 

[2ndpillar]

Yes that is indeed a prophecy pointing to Muhammad.

Notice that the seals are not removed with the Revelation of Muhammad. This could be another reason the title is applied to Muhammad in verse 33:40 of the Qur'an,
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."

Thus all the Holy Books up to and Including the Quran were sealed. Muhammad being the Seal of the Prophets, indicating that the next Messengers from God would break this seals and release the meanings.

Regards Tony

Isaiah is not talking about some unknown character coming out of some contrived prophet who was called the "praised one' (Muhammad). The seal is broken by the "Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David" (Re 5:5).

 

[2ndpillar]

Notice that, in our time, you can see, there are followers of Moses who do not believe in Jesus, and you can see, followers of Jesus who do not believe in Muhammad, but you do not see, any followers of Abraham in our Time. Why is it?

Apparently, all the Abrahamic religions supposedly believe in the God of Abraham.