Why so mean?

[Vasilisa Jade]

Hey guys!

I was just wondering... why is God in the Old Testament so mean?

What is the Jewish opinion on why Gods temperment changed so much in the New Testament? It is like it did a 180. Anyone who has seen Lewis Black knows what inspired this. lol. It's on youtube. He was making fun of this and totally smashing the NT in such a funny way. I would provide a link but the language is dirty.

Much Love to you all,
Tigeress

 

[Yid613]

I was just wondering... why is God in the Old Testament so mean?

Have you read the OT? Not the badly translated xtain version with no commentary but from a proper Chumash or Tanack. If you do I think you’ll find a completely different picture. Why don’t you post some examples of why you think He is mean.

The Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi - Classic Texts
(Be sure to click on the "Show Rashi's Commentary" link at the top of each chapter)

What is the Jewish opinion on why Gods temperment changed so much in the New Testament? It is like it did a 180.

In the OT G-d is forgiving. Punishment is very limited and rehabilatory. The World to Come (the afterlife, heaven) is open to all Jew and Gentiles alike.

In the NT it’s all about sin and eternal damnation. The only way to heaven is thru the church, members only.

Anyone who has seen Lewis Black knows what inspired this. lol. It's on youtube. He was making fun of this and totally smashing the NT in such a funny way. I would provide a link but the language is dirty.

You can PM me the link, ah so I can properly answer your question of course.

 

[NoahideHiker]

Hey guys!

I was just wondering... why is God in the Old Testament so mean?

What is the Jewish opinion on why Gods temperment changed so much in the New Testament? It is like it did a 180. Anyone who has seen Lewis Black knows what inspired this. lol. It's on youtube. He was making fun of this and totally smashing the NT in such a funny way. I would provide a link but the language is dirty.

Much Love to you all,
Tigeress

What specific instances of "meanness" would you mean? Having studied the Tanach for years now I have found such loving kindness in the Tanach. If you read carefully you'll find that G-d never let's His people be uninformed. Every time we see Him being "mean" we find right near by that text the solution and the positive outcome if the right path is followed.

But it is interesting, why DID G-d seem to change all of a sudden? Is there anything in the Jewish writtings that would suggest G-d would change? Is there anything that would suggest He WOULDN'T change?

Malachi 3:6
6. For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.

Psalm 102:24-27: "So I said: "Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

How did we suddenly go from an unchanging god who is not a man and can't be a man, to this god who is in spirit form but at the same time physical form where the physical half of G-d doesn't know what's going on. He even prays to himself. WTH?

So the question should be, Did G-d change? Or did man change G-d?

 

[Dunemeister]

I realize this is a Judaism thread, but I wonder if I could provide a Christian response to the OP. If it's out of place, please feel free to delete it. I certainly don't intend it to be contradictory to what has already been said (most of which I actually agree with).

It's a common misperception that God's character somehow changed from the OT to the NT. It's simply not so. That's not to say there's no differences between the covenants. There certainly are, but the change in covenant details doesn't change the God who made/changed the covenants. The God of the OT loved his people but chastized them for doing wrong. In the NT we get more of the same. In both cases, God demands that we do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with him.

 

[NoahideHiker]

I realize this is a Judaism thread, but I wonder if I could provide a Christian response to the OP. If it's out of place, please feel free to delete it. I certainly don't intend it to be contradictory to what has already been said (most of which I actually agree with).

It's a common misperception that God's character somehow changed from the OT to the NT. It's simply not so. That's not to say there's no differences between the covenants. There certainly are, but the change in covenant details doesn't change the God who made/changed the covenants. The God of the OT loved his people but chastized them for doing wrong. In the NT we get more of the same. In both cases, God demands that we do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with him.

Not to get off track but what covenant did G-d change and how?

 

[Phasmid]

God owns.

 

[Dunemeister]

Not to get off track but what covenant did G-d change and how?

Well, Christians generally appeal to Jeremiah 31:31-34 to show that God had always intended to renew/replace the Mosaic covenant with Israel in a fresh way. Depending on how you read other crucial passages, you get different visions of what this is going to look like. In some visions, this new covenant embraced the gentiles. In others, they're excluded, demoted, or destroyed. But on one point they all agree: there will be a new covenant in which the law of God is not an external reality but rather is implanted in the hearts of God's people.

But as you've said, this is not to get off track, so I return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Have you read the OT? Not the badly translated xtain version with no commentary but from a proper Chumash or Tanack.

Let it go. You do a disservice to Judaism with this intellectually shallow bias. Lacing a text with self-serving justification and consecrating it as thereby "proper" has nothing in common with serious Jewish Torah study, hence the extensive, scholarly, and intellectually honest explanatory material to be found in Etz Haym, Plaut, and the JPS Torah Commentary.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

< -- note -- >

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Let it go. You do a disservice to Judaism with this intellectually shallow bias. Lacing a text with self-serving justification and consecrating it as thereby "proper" has nothing in common with serious Jewish Torah study, hence the extensive, scholarly, and intellectually honest explanatory material to be found in Etz Haym, Plaut, and the JPS Torah Commentary.

DO WHAT?! So I should read the who? I didn't think "proper" was all that bad of diction... why the negative connotation? In more simple terms....

I think that was rather harsh.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Have you read the OT? Not the badly translated xtain version with no commentary but from a proper Chumash or Tanack. If you do I think you’ll find a completely different picture. Why don’t you post some examples of why you think He is mean.

Well, I have only been exposed to the xian version of the OT, so you just answered my question. Why was I thinking that Jews use the KJV??!!!!

*slaps self in the head

Is the KJV just considered to be the mistranslation?

The Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi - Classic Texts
(Be sure to click on the "Show Rashi's Commentary" link at the top of each chapter)

In the OT G-d is forgiving. Punishment is very limited and rehabilatory. The World to Come (the afterlife, heaven) is open to all Jew and Gentiles alike.

In the NT it’s all about sin and eternal damnation. The only way to heaven is thru the church, members only.


You can PM me the link, ah so I can properly answer your question of course.

I'm glad you liked

I think it would be counter-productive to post any examples, as they are all from the KJV.

lol. Sorry about that. It was a hasty question.

But my boyfriend was wondering too, and he is seriously leaning towards Judaism. I am sure he can get his hands on that material. His biological moms side is Jewish.

Thanks guys.

I am still curious about the whole change in attitude though. It is nice to get you guys opinion on it, but I might post it in the debate section too.

I am not real good with debating biblical things, so if any of you guys think it's a good idea feel free to beat me to it. lol.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

DO WHAT?! So I should read the who?

No one is suggesting that you should read anything, and your view on my criticism of Yid613's bias is of absolutely no concern to me. If you wish to debate the relative merits of various Torah commentaries, please initiate that debate in the appropriate forum.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

No one is suggesting that you should read anything, and your view on my criticism of Yid613's bias is of absolutely no concern to me. If you wish to debate the relative merits of various Torah commentaries, please initiate that debate in the appropriate forum.

I actually was looking for suggestions on material to read, hence the question I asked in a respectful manner, so that I may understand Judaism better---Gods attitude in particular.

I also actually asked for you to elaborate on your criticism of Yid613's bias so that I could understand what in the heck offended you, hence understand whatever that is better as well. But, if you'd rather be short and confrontational that is fine too, as long as it stays in your own little world and out of mine.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that I have said that could even be debated in an offensive manner doesn't even have anything to do with Judaism, but of the way you responded to your brother Yid613, which was just my opinion and needed no fluff added.

The question on God being mean is done for the time being until I get some Jewish reading material.

 

[Yid613]

Well, I have only been exposed to the xian version of the OT, so you just answered my question. Why was I thinking that Jews use the KJV??!!!!

*slaps self in the head

Is the KJV just considered to be the mistranslation?

"All translation is commentary" - Aryeh Kaplan.
When reading a translation one has to take into consideration who the translator was. The KJV is a xtain translation of a translation so it will naturally have a xtain flavor and follow the xtain version of the story. A while back my Rabbi told me that a lady called him and said that she was have trouble understanding a verse in the OT. Her Priest suggested that she contact a Rabbi as they had better translations. The link I posted was for a translation from the Hebrew text based on the Jewish understanding.

But my boyfriend was wondering too, and he is seriously leaning towards Judaism. I am sure he can get his hands on that material. His biological moms side is Jewish.

If his mother is Jewish then he is Jewish, 100%, a member of the tribe.
Chumash/Tanack with Rashi is a classic way to study Torah (the OT). Basic but still a lot of "Oh I didn’t know thats" in there.

 

[NoahideHiker]

I actually was looking for suggestions on material to read, hence the question I asked in a respectful manner, so that I may understand Judaism better---Gods attitude in particular.

I also actually asked for you to elaborate on your criticism of Yid613's bias so that I could understand what in the heck offended you, hence understand whatever that is better as well. But, if you'd rather be short and confrontational that is fine too, as long as it stays in your own little world and out of mine.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that I have said that could even be debated in an offensive manner doesn't even have anything to do with Judaism, but of the way you responded to your brother Yid613, which was just my opinion and needed no fluff added.

The question on God being mean is done for the time being until I get some Jewish reading material.

Just ignore him and listen to those willing to help you.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Just ignore him and listen to those willing to help you.

lol. I think he was having a bad day.

Scholarly people tend to be grumpy often.

 

[NoahideHiker]

lol. I think he was having a bad day.

Scholarly people tend to be grumpy often.

No. He's like that every day, every thread, every post.

Anyhow, here is a great web site that has TONS of info on Judaism.

Jewfaq.org

 

[Deut 13:1]

Hey guys!

I was just wondering... why is God in the Old Testament so mean?

What is the Jewish opinion on why Gods temperment changed so much in the New Testament? It is like it did a 180. Anyone who has seen Lewis Black knows what inspired this. lol. It's on youtube. He was making fun of this and totally smashing the NT in such a funny way. I would provide a link but the language is dirty.

Much Love to you all,
Tigeress

I don't think HaShem is mean, if anything I believe that HaShem is more disapointed then anything. We're given so many chances to have a relationship with G-d, and time and time again, we fall so short. To answer your question, the israelites made covenants with G-d and they consistently fell short of fullfilling their end of the agreement; because of this, they were punished.

Keep in mind that Jews don't read or adhere to the N.T. To us, the NT is fiction and has nothing to do with TaNaKh and because of this; any changes about HaShem in the NT really don't have any influence on us.

 

[Elessar]

To those of us who are Messianic Jews, we see no change. The G-d of the Tanakh (or badly named "Old Testament") is not less forgiving or more forgiving than that of the Messianic Writings (or, badly named, "New Testament").

However, as others have pointed out, every translation is a commentary. Generally, Christian translations tend to make the Tanakh seem harsh and unforgiving to make the Messianic Writings more appealing. I myself am partial to the JPS (Jewish Publication Society of America) version and modern derivatives thereof, such as the NJPS (New Jewish Publication Society of America Version) and CJB (Complete Jewish Bible) Tanakh. Among Christian versions, the KJV/NKJV can be used in a pinch, as their "Old Testament" translations are also based on the Masoretic text, but I would highly recommend, if you seriously want to read the Tanakh in a modern, Jewish translation, that you get the NJPS or CJB. I don't have any preference for either the NJPS or the CJB Tanakh, I just far prefer the CJB Messianic Writings to other translations of the Messianic Writings - that's just not the subject of this thread. But I digress.

Summary: Read the NJPS or CJB Tanakh to get a Jewish feel for the Tanakh, and don't rely on Christian translations to get a feel of the Jewish concept of G-d.

 

[NoahideHiker]

I don't think HaShem is mean, if anything I believe that HaShem is more disapointed then anything. We're given so many chances to have a relationship with G-d, and time and time again, we fall so short. To answer your question, the israelites made covenants with G-d and they consistently fell short of fullfilling their end of the agreement; because of this, they were punished.

Keep in mind that Jews don't read or adhere to the N.T. To us, the NT is fiction and has nothing to do with TaNaKh and because of this; any changes about HaShem in the NT really don't have any influence on us.

I find the Oral Torah and the great commentators as an indispensable tool in reasoning through seemingly contradictory placed in the Tanach.