Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Soapy]

You saying, “I don’t know what it means to say the first Heaven will pass away….”

You know, you’re a gem! Your candid honesty is very appealing! Not very many would own up to ‘not knowing’ something; they would just not say anything.

From what I’ve been taught, heaven, in this context, refers to governments & rulerships. If you read Ephesians 3:10, you can see how heaven can be applied.

To summarize….(keep in mind my previous post about “earth”)…
‘The former heaven and the former earth passing away,’ is symbolically speaking of human rulerships & the worldly societies they rule over as being gone, and “the New Heaven and the New Earth” is referencing God’s Kingdom (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9,10) exerting it’s authority over a ‘new society’ of meek people who love God & His Son.

No more inept & divisive human rulerships, struggling with one disaster after another!

I hate to burst your bubble as you appear to be fighting on the sand front as myself (as far as I see against the poster you replied to).

The present heaven and earth (Creation) is ruled over by ANGELS… not human kind!!!!
The verse is not talking about visible human government like with Putin (Russia), Rishi Sunak (Uk), Biden (USA), etc… but the GREATER invisible ethereal rulership from the Spiritusl realm.

Hence, Scripture tells us that:

• ‘For God did not propose that the world to come should be ruled over by angels’

Satan, is the great prince fancifully ruling ‘as God’ over the created world. Jesus has defeated him and ‘saw him fall from Heaven like lightening… woe to the world for the prince of this world has come into his domain and is exceedingly angry…!’

But, for sure, the rulership will be a human government HEADED by Jesus Christ… and the Elect of God will fill the roles in a tiered rulership model (Kings and Priest, serving our God).

These, Jesus Christ and the Elect, will bring in a new rulership that will be completely righteous and remain eternally: ‘Thy throne, O mighty one, will be forever and ever…’ on the ethereal throne of the ancestral king, David.

 

[Soapy]

I certainly can decide.

The Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in.

The Spirit truth was the Holy Spirit that was sent in the last days. Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth because he brought the Holy Spirit in the last days.

In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Since you mentioned the new world, I just finished responding to a post on another thread that pertains to that. Below is what I said.

Revelation 21:1
1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

I don't know what it means to say that the first heaven will pass away, but the first earth passing away means that the earth will be transformed so the old earth will exist no longer. This is not referring to the physical earth, it is referring to the conditions on earth, social, economic, political, and spiritual. Eventually there will be a new race of men on earth.

New Race of Men

No more sea does not mean there will be no more oceans. The seas are is symbolic for the divisions between people on earth, what divides us as humans.
No more sea means there will be no more division because humanity will be united. Since all humans have been created equal in the image of God, God does not make any distinction between people based upon race, creed, color, or religion, so neither should we. Eventually there will be one common faith.

Revelation 21:4
4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

That verse literally it was not intended to be interpreted literally.
No more mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away means that on the new earth (after the earth has been transformed as noted above) people will be happy because the former things (painful and sorrowful things that used to exist on the old earth) will no longer exist.

You are welcome to believe that but I don't. I believe that everyone goes to the spirit realm when they die physically. Meanwhile, all living people will reside on earth until they die and some of those people will help in building the New Earth that I described above.

TB… The holy Spirit (Spirit of God) sent at Pentecost will remain with you eternally… How can it be SENT AGAIN if it resided with believers ETERNALLY?

 

[Soapy]

Does earth need to mean the planet?
No…

Please read Genesis 11:1….
Earth here definitely refers to people, ie., society.


Besides, understanding it literally, would contradict Ecclesiastes 1:4.

As far as “…the sea is no more”, does that mean the literal oceans? No, please read the figurative use of “sea” in Isaiah 57:20.

So IOW, the wicked will be “no more”, in harmony with Psalm 37:10,11 & others.

Hope you are well, my cousin.

There will be no division of peoples… Before Babel there was only one nation - no division of peoples.

 

[SLPCCC]

So both God and Jesus created all things individually by themselves alone?!

That would be polytheism or henotheism. I believe in monotheism. Jesus is God. Henotheism is the worship of a single God while not denying the existence or possible existence of other gods. For example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are polytheistic/henotheistic. A Jehovah’s Witness with a henotheistic bias of the Trinity would interpret every Scripture calling Jesus “god” as a reference to Him being a secondary divine Being or lesser “god,” rather than accept the historic, monotheistic viewpoint of Biblical Christianity that regards Jesus as the same “God” They believe that Jehovah is God and Jesus is a god. They also believe that other gods exist, such as evil gods, and they believe men are called gods. They even have a bible where they changed verses in it to support their view.

 

[SLPCCC]

So just taking it on his word, Jesus had a temple. And it was the temple of his body.

I'm glad you are taking the bible's word and not an organization's.

 

[SLPCCC]

Your question rests on the assumption that the account from the gospel of John did not originate with the false witnesses. The differences between John's account and the synoptics all favour the Pharisees in the gospel of John.

Can you say more about this?

 

[SLPCCC]

Good question!

The simple answer is this: because it depended / hinged on him staying loyal to Yahweh, his God.

That's your answer??? Umm, were you having some martinis when you wrote this? LOL

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm glad you are taking the bible's word and not an organization's.

So you agree that the temple of his body was not his physical body, is that right as far as your thinking goes regarding what Jesus is said to have said in the Bible? So in your opinion, what was the "temple of his body"? Any idea?

 

[Soapy]

That would be polytheism or henotheism. I believe in monotheism. Jesus is God. Henotheism is the worship of a single God while not denying the existence or possible existence of other gods. For example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are polytheistic/henotheistic. A Jehovah’s Witness with a henotheistic bias of the Trinity would interpret every Scripture calling Jesus “god” as a reference to Him being a secondary divine Being or lesser “god,” rather than accept the historic, monotheistic viewpoint of Biblical Christianity that regards Jesus as the same “God” They believe that Jehovah is God and Jesus is a god. They also believe that other gods exist, such as evil gods, and they believe men are called gods. They even have a bible where they changed verses in it to support their view.

Sounds about right!

YHWH is one God; He is the ONLY GOD… the only TRUE GOD.

That is nog to say there are ‘Other Gods’ who are ACTUAL GODS… no! The term ‘God’, refers to ‘MIGHTY ONE’……… a Superlative Adjective: ‘Mightiest’, ‘Most Holy’, ‘Greatest’, ‘Majestic’… ‘All mighty’: IN CONTEXT… There must always be a CONTEXT attached to the term.

In the Bible, and particularly in the New Testament, ‘God’ is in the context of ‘… of the Jews’. In the Old Testament it was ‘… of the Israelites’. In all other references the CONTEXT is shown: ‘God of the Philistines’, ‘ … of the Moabites’… etc.

Again, in the New Testament the context is dropped since (unless shown otherwise) it is ‘… of the Jews’, and ‘… of Jesus and the Disciples / Apostles’.

Of course, there were many who were MIGHTY… Angels are MIGHTY ONES and hence they are ‘Gods’ IN CONTEXT of Spirit creations and certainly mightier than mankind. But there are those of humanity who believe in Spirits Deities whom they worship AS GODS…

Even THE GOD OF THE JEWS did not deny that there are such MIGHTY ONES - but said this:

• ‘I am GOD over those whom ARE CALLED GODS’
• ‘I, YHWH, am MIGHTIER than all whom are classed AS MIGHTY ONES’

Even Satan is called ‘God’ (try telling that to a trinitarian!!!), ‘GOD [Context: of this system of things]’.

There is nothing wrong much less blasphemous in using the term ‘God’ for any worthy situation that is suitable:

• ‘A judge is GOD in his Courtroom’
• ‘A Chess Grandmaster is GOD of his game’
• ‘A Principal is GOD in his school’
• ‘A Lion is GOD in the jungle’ (yes, I know lions don’t live in jungles - it’s just a saying!)

Every religious nation and groups refer to the real or spiritual ones they worship AS GODS.
The term ‘God’ is not a title only for the Jewish deity.

So, we are to understand that, unless there is a context attached to it, ‘God’ refers to YHWH. In the verse:

• ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever…’

carries the context of ‘The ethereal throne of KING DAVID’, so it most certainly does not refer to YHWH but to Jesus AS a mighty human being:

• ‘Thy throne, O Mighty one, is forever…’

hence, after the judgement, Jesus takes his seat ON THAT THRONE from where he will rule eternally.

 

[Balthazzar]

Well, since I *am* a Jew, let me share what I see through my "Jewish lens."

The New Testament gives conflicting opinions as to who Jesus was, whether he was a god-man, or just a man. Thus, anyone reading the NT with an eye to determine the nature of Jesus, is forced to emphasize one set of verses, and conspicuously ignore the other set. This is why both Arian Christians and Trinitarian Christians BOTH base their theology on the New Testament, but reach radically different conclusions.

Continuing to use my "Jewish lens," any text that claims that a man is god is teaching idolatry. It doesn't matter if the man is Caesar, or Jesus, or David Koresh. The sacred text of Jews, what we call the Tanakh and Christians call the Old Testament, teaches on four separate occasions that God is not a man.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man...nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 for he is not a man
Hosea 11:9 I am God and not a man
Job 9:32 For he is not a man

This is one of many reasons why I don't accept the NT, just as I don't accept the Quran, the Book of Mormon, the Vedas, etc.

It does state that we are gods, made in gods image, and that man became one of. So, in this context we are god and gods and part of the trinity as children. Truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

TB… The holy Spirit (Spirit of God) sent at Pentecost will remain with you eternally…

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Who are they? They are the men who were assembled in one place. They are the ones to whom the Holy Spirit was sent.

How do you think the Holy Spirit was sent to all the believers?
Are there other verses that say that God or Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to all the believers?

How can it be SENT AGAIN if it resided with believers ETERNALLY?

What are the verses that say that the Holy Spirit resides with believers eternally?
How did the believers living in this age get the Holy Spirit?

Even if it does reside in all the believers eternally, and I am not saying I believe that, that does not mean the Holy Spirit cannot be sent again.
What do you believe the Holy Spirit is? Bellow is what I believe it is. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit literally dwells (lives inside) the believers, I believe it has a direct connection to their soul. (Read the last sentence below).

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But regardless of what happened back in the days when Jesus walked the earth, we still have the prophecies of what will happen in the last days.

The last days refers to the period of time we are now in—between Christ’s death/resurrection/ascension and his second appearing or return. This is also called “the last time/s” (Jude 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:20) or “the last hour” (1 John 2:18) or “the end of the ages” (1 Cor. 10:11).

It is helpful to think of the Old Testament as the age of promise, where God promised his people a Messiah who would establish and rule over his Kingdom.

With the advent of Jesus as the Christ, or the Messiah, we have the age of fulfillment.
Yes, We Really Are Living in the Last Days

Acts 2:17 says in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.
It is my belief that with the advent of Baha'u'llah, who was the return of Christ, we have the age of fulfillment.
God poured out His Spirit upon all flesh when He sent Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit.

Baha'u'llah was called the Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit that was sent to Him by the Father.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[YoursTrue]

It does state that we are gods, made in gods image, and that man became one of. So, in this context we are god and gods and part of the trinity as children. Truth.

Jesus also repeated the scripture to his persecutors because he said he was the son of God. Why do you think they got so offended because he said he was the SON of God? Any idea?

 

[YoursTrue]

It does state that we are gods, made in gods image, and that man became one of. So, in this context we are god and gods and part of the trinity as children. Truth.

So the "substance" of a beetle or duck, were they supposedly made in God's image as well? What do you think? Maybe gorillas too were made in God's image. Again, substance or were they substantially made in God's image, you know, with substance and mind. What do you think?

 

[YoursTrue]

So you agree that the temple of his body was not his physical body, is that right as far as your thinking goes regarding what Jesus is said to have said in the Bible? So in your opinion, what was the "temple of his body"? Any idea?

@SLPCCC == I'm looking forward to your reply explaining if you think the temple of Jesus' body was his body. Also @Soapy.

 

[YoursTrue]

It does state that we are gods, made in gods image, and that man became one of. So, in this context we are god and gods and part of the trinity as children. Truth.

What about chimpanzees. Do you believe they were made in God's image also? and expressed as gods? What do you think...also @IndigoChild5559 please.

 

[YoursTrue]

I hate to burst your bubble as you appear to be fighting on the sand front as myself (as far as I see against the poster you replied to).

The present heaven and earth (Creation) is ruled over by ANGELS… not human kind!!!!
The verse is not talking about visible human government like with Putin (Russia), Rishi Sunak (Uk), Biden (USA), etc… but the GREATER invisible ethereal rulership from the Spiritusl realm.

Hence, Scripture tells us that:

• ‘For God did not propose that the world to come should be ruled over by angels’

Satan, is the great prince fancifully ruling ‘as God’ over the created world. Jesus has defeated him and ‘saw him fall from Heaven like lightening… woe to the world for the prince of this world has come into his domain and is exceedingly angry…!’

But, for sure, the rulership will be a human government HEADED by Jesus Christ… and the Elect of God will fill the roles in a tiered rulership model (Kings and Priest, serving our God).

These, Jesus Christ and the Elect, will bring in a new rulership that will be completely righteous and remain eternally: ‘Thy throne, O mighty one, will be forever and ever…’ on the ethereal throne of the ancestral king, David.

Soapy, are you saying the present heaven and earth is ruled over by angels? Seems to me that's what you're saying but I just want to make sure that is what you are saying. thank you.

 

[Balthazzar]

So the "substance" of a beetle or duck, were they supposedly made in God's image as well? What do you think? Maybe gorillas too were made in God's image. Again, substance or were they substantially made in God's image, you know, with substance and mind. What do you think?

Pretty much. The only difference may be ability to understand things like we do. I don't know though. They may already.

 

[Balthazzar]

What about chimpanzees. Do you believe they were made in God's image also? and expressed as gods? What do you think...also @IndigoChild5559 please.

Pretty much, although they seem to throw a lot of poo at each other.

 

[Spice]

So the "substance" of a beetle or duck, were they supposedly made in God's image as well? What do you think? Maybe gorillas too were made in God's image. Again, substance or were they substantially made in God's image, you know, with substance and mind. What do you think?

I believe what we share in common with God, what part of us is made in His image, is the eternal essence. The parts of us that are of this world, the physical body, the persona, can not be destroyed either, as per science. However, they most definitely will be reconfigured as all matter and energy will be. But that "essence" that is eternal, and is "of God" is very individualized, unique, and pliable. We are here for the opportunity to grow and reunite with God's essense, IMO.

 

[YoursTrue]

Pretty much, although they seem to throw a lot of poo at each other.

OK, so beetles and ducks and chimpanzess were created in God's image, according to your so-called Christian evolutionary beliefs. minus some of the thought process. thank you. Maybe, because you say beetles, ducks and chimpanzees haven't spoken to you about it so you don't know. thanks a lot. That helps also.