Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Spice]

What's the key? Keep Praying and don't give up until the 5% agrees with the 95%!

Praying is talking to God and that's great. But far too many forget the listening part of a conversation. And if your earthly father was anything like mine, you were taught to listen more than talk.

I found the same to be true with the Heavenly Father. Listening is meditation. I meditate best in nature. It's the easiest place for me to "hear", just as Jesus said to go to a closet to pray. He always seemed to be walking away from his disciples to be alone. Yes, that alone quiet time let's a lot of "study" fall into place. Besides the Preacher said to be aware of too much study. (Ecc. 12) And James told us if we have a question to take it to the Father. (Ja. 1)

Also, do you realize not everything in Scriptures is for everyone on everyday? There is a time and place for everything under the heavens -- Ecc again.

 

[YoursTrue]

Leave oft to where? Oh, brother where art thou. Thy many sorrows be well known.

Leaving off any discussion with you about your ideas right now. Hope things go well with you.

 

[Spice]

Your "individual essence" that spring from God's essence? OK, I'd rather go with what the Bible says. From dust to dust. And we can be remembered by God -- every hair on our heads, just as God sees even a little sparrow that falls to the ground. I understand that far better than essence and returning to the essence, etc. Bye for now...

Well along with the "dust to dust" the Bible says in Ecc 12:7 "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

 

[SLPCCC]

Hi, @SLPCCC -- just wondering if you saw my question earlier about if you agree that the temple of his body was not his physical body? So in your opinion, what was the "temple of his body"? Any idea?

Why should I answer your question? You JWs are afraid to answer my questions straight forward while beating around the bush and going off-topic. Tell me first what the "temple of the body" has to do with Jesus raising his body while being dead instead of asking his father to raise his body? Nothing! it's just a red herring designed by your organization and taught to its members to avoid getting answers from real thought-provoking questions. Your organization doesn't want you to think. They want to think for you; otherwise, they might lose you from the truth.

But I'll answer this way: All of our bodies are temples of God. Starting with Jesus. That is why we need to respect it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well along with the "dust to dust" the Bible says in Ecc 12:7 "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

That is true. The next discussion should be what does it mean the spirit returns to God. Hopefully we can discuss that soon.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why should I answer your question? You JWs are afraid to answer my questions straight forward while beating around the bush and going off-topic. Tell me first what the "temple of the body" has to do with Jesus raising his body while being dead instead of asking his father to raise his body? Nothing! it's just a red herring designed by your organization and taught to its members to avoid getting answers from real thought-provoking questions. Your organization doesn't want you to think. They want to think for you; otherwise, they might lose you from the Truth.

But I'll answer this way: All of our bodies are temples of God. Starting with Jesus. That is why we need to respect it.

John 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
So the temple of his body was his body according to you.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why should I answer your question? You JWs are afraid to answer my questions straight forward while beating around the bush and going off-topic. Tell me first what the "temple of the body" has to do with Jesus raising his body while being dead instead of asking his father to raise his body? Nothing! it's just a red herring designed by your organization and taught to its members to avoid getting answers from real thought-provoking questions. Your organization doesn't want you to think. They want to think for you; otherwise, they might lose you from the Truth.

But I'll answer this way: All of our bodies are temples of God. Starting with Jesus. That is why we need to respect it.

I don't know what you're talking about. The fact is Jesus died for three days. His body died. He died. The temple of his body died.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What about chimpanzees. Do you believe they were made in God's image also? and expressed as gods? What do you think...also @IndigoChild5559 please.

To be honest, I see the divine spark in all of creation. However, since most people, when they think of being in God's image, think things like agency and morality, I would say that I see chimps developing these traits. For example, we know that chimps have both empathy and a sense of justice, and that those are the foundation for moral thought. Do I consider chimps morally sentient yet? I don't honestly know. They are right there at the cusp.

 

[Spice]

John 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
So the temple of his body was his body according to you.

His body was the temple for his spirit just as the Jerusalem temple was the home of the Father. That's where they reside. But just as God was not destroyed with the temple in 70 AD, the "essence", (there's that word again) of Jesus was not destroyed when his body died. Remember what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well -- there will soon come a time we all will worship in spirit.

 

[SLPCCC]

John 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
So the temple of his body was his body according to you.

And according to you?

 

[SLPCCC]

The Holy Spirit Speaks, ​

Some will say that the Holy Spirit is like electricity, but a closer look at the scriptures shows that the Holy Spirit Speaks!!

• "And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." Acts 8:29
• While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." NIV Acts 13:2

Notice at Acts 8:29 the Holy Spirit uses the pronoun, “me”.

• As Peter continued to reflect on the vision, the Spirit told him, “Three men are here looking for you. Get up! Go downstairs and accompany them without hesitation because I have sent them.” Acts 10:19-20

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe what we share in common with God, what part of us is made in His image, is the eternal essence. The parts of us that are of this world, the physical body, the persona, can not be destroyed either, as per science. However, they most definitely will be reconfigured as all matter and energy will be. But that "essence" that is eternal, and is "of God" is very individualized, unique, and pliable. We are here for the opportunity to grow and reunite with God's essense, IMO.

I believe what we share in common with God, what part of us is made in His image, are the attributes of God. Some of God's attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. Humans also have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.

I believe that the parts of us that are of this world, the physical body, will be buried in the ground. Our body may not be destroyed but I don't think it will be reconfigured. Instead, I believe that after our physical body dies we will get a new body, a spiritual body suited to exist in the spiritual world. What you referred to as the "essence" that is eternal, and is "of God" that is very individualized, unique, and pliable I refer to as the soul, which is the person. The physical body is not the person, it is only a medium by which the soul to expresses itself while we are living on earth.

I believe that we are here for the opportunity to grow, so our soul can reunite with God after we die and enter the spiritual world.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.” Gleanings, p. 159

“Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world….”
Gleanings, p. 156

 

[Spice]

I believe what we share in common with God, what part of us is made in His image, are the attributes of God. Some of God's attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. Humans also have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.

I believe that the parts of us that are of this world, the physical body, will be buried in the ground. Our body may not be destroyed but I don't think it will be reconfigured. Instead, I believe that after our physical body dies we will get a new body, a spiritual body suited to exist in the spiritual world. What you referred to as the "essence" that is eternal, and is "of God" that is very individualized, unique, and pliable I refer to as the soul, which is the person. The physical body is not the person, it is only a medium by which the soul to expresses itself while we are living on earth.

I believe that we are here for the opportunity to grow, so our soul can reunite with God after we die and enter the spiritual world.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.” Gleanings, p. 159

“Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world….”
Gleanings, p. 156

We pretty much believe the same just described in different words.

The essence is what makes God God. Indeed, his perfect attributes. Perfect because they're His. We are made of those attributes, however, we must perfect them by gaining control, in a manner of speaking, as Jesus "overcame the world."

As per your quote fro Bahá’u’lláh, "...the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God" -- this is what I see happening through as many incarnations as necessary to achieve.
Where and how do you believe this continued progress is attained?

The body's reconfiguration means it will decay, and return to the earth to mix back into its original state of matter. We know our bodies will become worm food that will enrich the soil. Anyway, eventually there will be another human body made from this molecular matter as God made each of us. It's the physics of the Creator's natural/worldly creation. Matter cannot be completed destroyed, nor can energy be destroyed -- only rerouted, or reconfigured. The new body will be made of another combination of "dust from the ground" and God will "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" from a new combination of energy. (Gen. 2) Then God "consecrates" the eternal soul, or the individual essence to the body.

 

[YoursTrue]

And according to you?

It's not according to me. It's according to what the Bible says. The Bible says that jesus' body had a temple and that it was destroyed and in three days he would raise it up.

 

[Brian2]

So you agree that the temple of his body was not his physical body, is that right as far as your thinking goes regarding what Jesus is said to have said in the Bible? So in your opinion, what was the "temple of his body"? Any idea?

John 2:18 So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple,[c] and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

When Jesus spoke these words there was only the Temple in Jerusalem and the temple of His body in which God lived.
His disciples were not a temple at that time.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not according to me. It's according to what the Bible says. The Bible says that jesus' body had a temple and that it was destroyed and in three days he would raise it up.

The temple was His physical body which was destroyed and the temple that was raised up was His glorified spiritual body.

 

[Trailblazer]

We pretty much believe the same just described in different words.

The essence is what makes God God. Indeed, his perfect attributes. Perfect because they're His. We are made of those attributes, however, we must perfect them by gaining control, in a manner of speaking, as Jesus "overcame the world."

Baha'is believe that we can know God's attributes through what the Messengers of God reveal about God's attributes and because the Messengers perfectly reflect God's attributes. Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God which is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God was visible in Jesus. Jesus also said “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) because they shared the same attributes.

The essence of God and the attributes of God are what makes God God, but Baha'u'llah wrote that we can never know the essence of God because the essence of God is completely unknowable. All we can know about God are His attributes and His will for any given age.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

As per your quote fro Bahá’u’lláh, "...the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God" -- this is what I see happening through as many incarnations as necessary to achieve.
Where and how do you believe this continued progress is attained?

Baha'is do not believe in reincarnation, meaning we don't believe that we will ever come back to this world.
Personally, I could never believe in a loving God would would send us back to this earth in order to progress. Once is enough of this torture chamber!
It also doesn't make sense to me that we would keep coming back here, since we already had our opportunity to make progress here. If for some reason our life was cut short through no fault of our own, Baha'is believe there will be recompense from God in the spiritual world.

Baha'is believe that we will continue to progress in the spiritual world (Heaven). Our progress will start with the person we were when we died, so the more we progress here, the further along we will be. The short excerpt below from a long article explains what Baha'is believe about death and what happens after that.

"Death is regarded as the shedding away of the physical frame but no more, the real part of the person is the soul, which is indestructible. In this there is nothing new, but the Bahá’í thought added another dimension to this idea. The soul is the sum total of the personality it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, having left his material side behind, remains the same person, and he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. His heaven therefore is the continuation of the pure life that he conducted in the physical world, and his hell is the continuation of the immoral life, which he conducted on earth. The effort to come nearer to God in the physical world continues with coming near God in the heaven of the mystical paradise. Remoteness from God in the physical life means remoteness in the world to come. Or, in the words of Bahá’u’lláh, Heaven is reunion with the Manifestation of God in the Abhā Kingdom, and hell is remaining with oneself. Heaven and Hell exist everywhere in this world as well as in the world to come. The difference between the two is the difference between the state of perfection achieved leading to the nearness of God here and hereafter, and the state of imperfection, which is caused by the failure to attain to virtue and the falling away from God.

The challenge of life in this world continues in the world of spiritual reality as well, only that in the latter the meeting of this challenge is easier because the person is free from physical needs."

Read more: Death and Dying in the Bahá’í Faith

The body's reconfiguration means it will decay, and return to the earth to mix back into its original state of matter. We know our bodies will become worm food that will enrich the soil. Anyway, eventually there will be another human body made from this molecular matter as God made each of us. It's the physics of the Creator's natural/worldly creation. Matter cannot be completed destroyed, nor can energy be destroyed -- only rerouted, or reconfigured. The new body will be made of another combination of "dust from the ground" and God will "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" from a new combination of energy. (Gen. 2) Then God "consecrates" the eternal soul, or the individual essence to the body.

I never heard that before. So what about bodies that are cremated?

Related to 'matter can never be destroyed' what do you believe happens to animals after they die?

 

[Ebionite]

Can you say more about this?

https://wethepeople.nz/torah/pages/john.html

 

[SLPCCC]

It's not according to me. It's according to what the Bible says. The Bible says that jesus' body had a temple and that it was destroyed and in three days he would raise it up.

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

You are twisting my words. I don't expect you to see it because you are fully indoctrinated. I love the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I always try to go out of my way to be extra nice to them because I know that they are being misled. So I will still try to help you here.

What you and the WT are doing here is using a red herring. In this case, it's designed to distract from the resurrection and the question: "Why did Jesus say that He would raise it up and didn't say that the Father would raise it up?"

Jesus indeed had a temple in His body—the very presence of God dwelling among us. Jesus' body is the new and true temple. (not the Jerusalem temple). The temple in Jerusalem was a shadow of a greater spiritual reality. (Jesus Body) His body pointed to the ultimate sacrifice and redemption that would take place through His death and resurrection. Through Jesus, we gain access to God. Just as people approached the temple to encounter God, we now have direct access to the Father through our union with Christ. Our bodies, too, become temples of the Holy Spirit. However, you avoided the question so you don't have to face the answer: "Why did Jesus say that He would raise it up and didn't say that the Father would raise it up?"

Think about it. I'll leave you with this and move on.

 

[Soapy]

If you have a belief and 10 scriptures to prove it is true and another person has a totally different belief and 10 scriptures to prove it is true, Does that prove anything?

I think the proof is only revealed after you can take all 20 scriptures from both sides of the discussion and find agreement, in such a way that every single scripture is 100% true! and contributes to the conclusion 100%.

The reality is that one but not both proofs is partly false. But anything that contains fallacies WILL ULTIMATELY END UP BEING FALSE.

So, choose the one that has no fallacies and will therefore be the one that is true.

But, Satan is not sleeping and will create illusions in the true scriptures just do that BOTH scriptures contain fallacies - he desires that no scriptures bd true so that eternal arguments will be the order of the day.

A truth finder will discover the true rendering in the scuppered true scriptures and try to show it to other - who may likely just not believe him (p.s. I was watching a quiz programme last night and a choice of three answers to a question came up that the contestant was stuck on. Everyone (he was allowed to consult the audience) told him the right answer BUT HE STILL CHOSE THE WRONG ONE!!!!).

Lacking Faith in the truth….