Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Cordelro]

That is similar to what I believe: #932

I believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are dependent on each other, although I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person.
I believe the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God (the Father) whose luminous rays emanated from Jesus, after God (the Father) sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus.

I believe the biblical Trinity is partialistic. This means that God consists of three different parts. An example of this is a triangle. It has three different corners that form one triangle. The three corners would be the three persons of the Trinity and together they are one God/triangle. Another example would be the color white. You need three different primary colors for the color white. The three primary colors would be the three persons of the Trinity and together they are God/white.

The Trinity also teaches subordination. But this subordination is NOT related to nature but only to the roles. An example of this is the human body. A human has one head and two arms. The head is the Father, the right arm is Jesus and the left arm is the Holy Spirit. In the hierarchy of roles, the Father is the first, the Son the second and the Holy Spirit the third. But in their nature they are the same!

As you can see, the biblical Trinity is partialistic, which means that the three persons are dependent on each other and are therefore only God together. They were never separate but were always together and will always be together. But the "mainstream" Trinity believed by Catholics says that the three persons are independent of each other. But then they cannot be one God! If the three persons are independent of each other then they are three different gods.

Furthermore, Catholics believe in the "Eternal Generation of the Son" which means that the Father begot the Son before the world. In other words, God has begotten another personal God. This is absolutely false and idolatry! The Son was only once begotten and that was at his human incarnation.

 

[Trailblazer]

My way, I try to form my thinking by first "only quoting Jesus words" I focus all my effort on that one task. and I try my very best not to add even one word more to Jesus words! I let Jesus words do all the explaining in such a way, his words become my foundation of truth to affect my thinking.

I'd like to believe that the words attributed to Jesus in the NT are Jesus' words, but it is logically impossible for them to be exactly what Jesus said, since Jesus did not write the NT. Nonetheless, perhaps the words in the NT capture the "essence" of what Jesus said, and that is usually good enough for me.

 

[walt]

Let's say a JW friend gives you a magazine that quotes John 14:14 in their bible and it reads:

• "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. NWT

Here, you will read it the way they want you to think. That if you ask anything in Jesus' name he will give it to you. Yes?

But if you go outside their bible and read it from the Greek translation word for word, you'll see that it actually says:
From: Bible Hub

• If anything you ask Me in the the name of me I will do it.

View attachment 89512
This has a totally different understanding. Here, it's saying that if you ask Jesus [Me], he [Jesus] will do it.

So the magazine is pointing to a misleading quote of a scripture, and you won't know unless you look at outside references.

---

Here's another example:

I found a Watchtower article that states Jehovah's Witnesses alone refrain from war. This is simply not true. But you won't know unless you research outside.

• "Who are no part of the world and learn war no more? Again, the historical record of the 20th century testifies: only Jehovah's Witnesses." Watchtower 1992 Apr 1 p.12

Doing research outside I found Christian churches known for their stance against war:

• Moravians (one of the very first Protestant religions dating back to the 1500's)
• Brethren (Dunkards) groups, including
  • Church of the Brethren
• Anabaptist groups, including
  • Mennonites (16th century group numbering 1.5 million)
  • Hutterites
  • Schwenkfelders
  • Bruderhof Communities
  • Amish (numbering approximately 200,000)
• Society of Friends (Quakers)
• Doukhobors - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
• Molokans - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
• Some Pentecostal groups such as the Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
• Seven Day Adventists
• Community of Christ
• Christadelphians
• Worldwide Church of God
• Pax Christi - A Catholic peace movement
• Fellowship of Reconciliation - A group formed in 1914 to unite pacifists regardless of denomination. All major religious denominations have affiliated associations including
  • Anglican Pacifist Fellowship
  • Methodist Peace Fellowship
  • Baptist Peace Fellowship
  • Orthodox Peace Fellowship
  • Lutheran Peace Fellowship
  • Presbyterian Peace Fellowship

This is what I was talking to you about seeing the bad fruit.

Very good point, I am working on this scripture research, you would be surprised, what I found in my research last night, give me a little time please. Your friend in Christ Jesus and his Father forever.

 

[SLPCCC]

Absolutely I only believe the scriptures that ARE NOT CORRUPTED. But yet I can decipher the corrupted ones back to their original saying if they actually existed, or that they were ADDED into scriptures ALWAYS in vain attempt to justify a fallacious trinity ideology.

Why would you Expect me to believe in false doctrine??? Is that what you do?

You don't have to yell. Easy. Say a prayer. Back up with your uncorrected bible with what you are saying. Usually, those that get cornered lash out. LOL

 

[Trailblazer]

As you can see, the biblical Trinity is partialistic, which means that the three persons are dependent on each other and are therefore only God together. They were never separate but were always together and will always be together.

Are you saying that is what you believe is true because that is what is in the Bible, if interpreted correctly?
Can you explain how the three are dependent on each other?

But the "mainstream" Trinity believed by Catholics says that the three persons are independent of each other. But then they cannot be one God! If the three persons are independent of each other then they are three different gods.

The "mainstream" Trinity is not only believed by Catholics. It is also believed by most Protestants.
All I know about the Trinity doctrine is that it teaches that the three Persons are all part of one God.
How does it teach that the three persons are independent of each other?

 

[walt]

I'd like to believe that the words attributed to Jesus in the NT are Jesus' words, but it is logically impossible for them to be exactly what Jesus said, since Jesus did not write the NT. Nonetheless, perhaps the words in the NT capture the "essence" of what Jesus said, and that is usually good enough for me.

I ask myself a question, how can I know Jesus words are very dependable to the highest degree? Then I get a piece of paper and make a list of all the things that would make me doubt Jesus words are very very important. Then I work on the first item on the list and figure out the best answer possible. That takes away the doubt completely. After I complete the list I'm as solid as a rock and so happy, and I discover a renewed strength!

 

[Soapy]

I suggest you not try to make sense of the Trinitarian beliefs, because you never will.

The Baha'i Faith has a Trinity belief but it is not like the Christian Trinity belief.
We believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are connected because they are ‘one in Purpose.’
In other words, they work together, but they are separate, not all ‘part of God.’
God is forever one and cannot be divided into Three Persons.

The Spirit of God (called ‘Holy Spirit’ (by those who are unaware of the realities of truth) does not have ‘a choice’ to be ‘one in purpose’. It is THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH so if is absolutely INNATE in ‘purpose’ with God. It could not choose to be anything else - it’s not animate in such a way… Truth cannot change of itself. But Jesus is animate such that he COULD HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO be one in purpose with the Father. We see this clearly on the night before he was to die. He almost CHOSE A DIFFERENT WAY but caught himself in time and subjected himself to the Will of God… ‘Father, if there could be another way… but yet not my Will but YOURS be done!’.

How could, at that single moment, they be ONE if Jesus was suggesting that he should finish the work the Father gave him to do by it being done ANOTHER WAY? Nonetheless, I state, Jesus recovered himself and gave himself up to the Will of the Father so their Will was one again.

I’m pretty sure scriptures only says of Jesus: “I and the Father are one”… and again, ‘Father, … eternal life depends on them knowing you, the only true God, […]’. Note that the ‘And Jesus Christ whom you sent’ appears spurious. Jesus NEVER spoke of himself using his own name and no sentence should be constructed that way, speaking if himself in the that way. He MAY have said, ‘And the/your Christ whom you sent’. There is no saying where eternal life depends on believing the Spirit of God!!

But show me something about the Spirit of God being ONE with the Father and Jesus BY YOUR RECKONING…

I believe that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before the body was born of Mary in this world.
That is why somewhere in the Bible Jesus said that He existed before Abraham. What Jesus meant is that His soul existed in the spiritual world (heaven) before His body was born in this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

I’m glad you said only that it’s YOUR belief.

‘SOUL’ is ‘BODY and SPIRIT’ and is just a different language word for ‘PERSON’.

‘Soul’ is from Hebrew, and ‘Person’, is Latin/English but both mean the same thing just as ‘Messiah’ (Hebrew) and ‘Christ’ (Greek) both mean exactly the same.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High, Page: 71)

Great excuse!!

 

[Soapy]

You don't have to yell. Easy. Say a prayer. Back up with your uncorrected bible with what you are saying. Usually, those that get cornered lash out. LOL

Wow, are you going to tell Jesus Christ that he shouldn’t have lashed (literally) those who were desecrating the temple in Jerusalem….

Man, you need to check yourself before you try disputing with those showing you truth.

And by the way, I use ‘single’ and “double quotes”, CAPITALS, bold or italics, (round brackets), [Square brackets] and tabulation, for emphasis as I feel appropriate. I only do small amounts of text but if you can’t handle it - tough. I’ve been doing this for years and it’s accepted in such small amounts - Get a backbone!!!!

 

[Trailblazer]

I ask myself a question, how can I know Jesus words are very dependable to the highest degree? Then I get a piece of paper and make a list of all the things that would make me doubt Jesus words are very very important. Then I work on the first item on the list and figure out the best answer possible. That takes away the doubt completely. After I complete the list I'm as solid as a rock and so happy, and I discover a renewed strength!

I understand what you are saying, but I see a problem with that approach. You are relying upon what would make YOU doubt Jesus words, but that is highly subjective, not objective, so it only works for you. You are happy and have a renewed strength but what if you are wrong?

 

[Trailblazer]

The Spirit of God (called ‘Holy Spirit’ (by those who are unaware of the realities of truth) does not have ‘a choice’ to be ‘one in purpose’. It is THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH so if is absolutely INNATE in ‘purpose’ with God. It could not choose to be anything else - it’s not animate in such a way… Truth cannot change of itself. But Jesus is animate such that he COULD HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO be one in purpose with the Father. We see this clearly on the night before he was to die. He almost CHOSE A DIFFERENT WAY but caught himself in time and subjected himself to the Will of God… ‘Father, if there could be another way… but yet not my Will but YOURS be done!’.

Just FYI, I believe that Jesus was the Spirit of God, because Baha'u'llah referred to Jesus as such.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

I believe that the Holy Spirit (which I believe is the Bounty of God) is what 'aided Jesus' to announce the coming of Baha'u'llah.
The passage below says "We, in truth, have sent Him" because it is referring to Jesus and God (We).

“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18

I think you already know who I believe the Spirit of truth is. It is a title that refers to Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth because He guided us into all truth and He glorified Jesus. He did not speak of Himself, He only spoke what He heard from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

How could, at that single moment, they be ONE if Jesus was suggesting that he should finish the work the Father gave him to do by it being done ANOTHER WAY? Nonetheless, I state, Jesus recovered himself and gave himself up to the Will of the Father so their Will was one again.

Of course Jesus and God (the Father) are not One Person, but Jesus did the work that the Father gave Him to do so they were One in Purpose.
Jesus was able to do the works of the Father because Jesus was aided by the Holy Spirit.
But Jesus said He could do nothing by Himself, which showed that Jesus needed the Father.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be God.

 

[walt]

Yes, that is how to read the truth.

One point to clear up:

• ‘Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.’

Be careful here. Trinitarians will claim that this is proof that Jesus created all things (‘Through whom are all things…’) but that is not the meaning.

Paul is saying that NOW JESUS IS IN HEAVEN, the Father has granted him ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY to rule for a time. This is what Paul means by ‘through whom are all things’ and consequently, ‘we through him [also]‘

Remember that Trinitarians wrote/translated the New Testaments and were instructed to make Trinity appear to be true. They were under the orders of churches that were only authorised to teach trinity as the doctrine - of course they would try to modify scriptures where they think could get away with it since only an elite set of people were allowed to read things for themselves - Believe me, when you cannot see the actual words, when someone reads with suitable inflexions and stresses of speech, when you cannot query what is being read, they can turn a lie into a truth and you cannot check for yourself - I’ve seen it done, for real, and I was appalled at the reader!!!

I can't say every time because so many Bibles just word things to suit their beliefs, which is not necessarily inconsistent with every Bible. The point is, the Bible says that God created all things through his son Jesus Christ. God does not say through himself, He says by himself and through Jesus.

The Father, Jesus and Apostle Paul writes the Father is the "one God" and Jesus is the "one Lord" and God has created all things through or by means of his only son Jesus Christ. Now this might not be a popular way to look at things, but The Father The Son and the Apostle Paul all say the same thing. Psalms 83:18, John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:5,6; 2 Corinthians 11:31 --Your friend in Christ Jesus and his Father forever.

 

[Trailblazer]

The point is, the Bible says that God created all things through his son Jesus Christ. God does not say through himself, He says by himself and through Jesus.

I know that the Bible says that, so there is no need for me to post the verses, but what do you think that means?
How did God create all things through Jesus Christ?

 

[walt]

I understand what you are saying, but I see a problem with that approach. You are relying upon what would make YOU doubt Jesus words, but that is highly subjective, not objective, so it only works for you. You are happy and have a renewed strength but what if you are wrong?

Mark 10:15 Jesus says to the disciples, “Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

Does a child view things complexly or simply? Is there anything wrong with a child's approach, keeping in mind Jesus words?
At least it's worth a try.

 

[walt]

I know that the Bible says that, so there is no need for me to post the verses, but what do you think that means?
How did God create all things through Jesus Christ?

Honestly first I want to address this, [ I think my opinion personally does not matter at all ] because everybody bases their opinion for a different reason, different information, different scriptures, I think what matters is Putting faith in Jesus words the way he explains it! I look for Jesus words explaining something. [ If Jesus words are not trustworthy / whose words are trustworthy? ].

I think if you just used Jesus words the way he explains it, it's almost I think like if Jesus was at the table talking with you. I know that sounds a little crazy, but I think if he does all the explaining at least you're getting his side of the story fully.

 

[Trailblazer]

Mark 10:15 Jesus says to the disciples, “Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

Does a child view things complexly or simply? Is there anything wrong with a child's approach, keeping in mind Jesus words?
At least it's worth a try.

Jesus said many different things but we have to read what He said in context. Just off the top of my head, here are some things that Jesus said that a child would not understand, but I think these are very important verses for adults to understand, if they want to have eternal life in heaven.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

 

[Trailblazer]

Honestly first I want to address this, the way I actually think about it I don't believe matters at all, because everybody bases their opinion for a different reason, different information, different scriptures, I think what matters is for example, how does Jesus explain it? I look for Jesus words explaining something.

I think if you just used Jesus words the way he explains it, it's almost I think like if Jesus was at the table talking with you. I know that sounds a little crazy, but I think if he does all the explaining at least you're getting his side of the story fully.

How does Jesus explain it?
Can you show me any verses where Jesus said that He created all things?
The verses below are not Jesus speaking.

Colossians 1

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

I will give you a heads-up. I believe that verses 3 and 4 are about God, not about Jesus.
All things were made by God since God created the heavens and the earth. In God was life and the life was the light of man.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

 

[SLPCCC]

Wow, are you going to tell Jesus Christ that he shouldn’t have lashed (literally) those who were desecrating the temple in Jerusalem….

Man, you need to check yourself before you try disputing with those showing you truth.

And by the way, I use ‘single’ and “double quotes”, CAPITALS, bold or italics, (round brackets), [Square brackets] and tabulation, for emphasis as I feel appropriate. I only do small amounts of text but if you can’t handle it - tough. I’ve been doing this for years and it’s accepted in such small amounts - Get a backbone!!!!

I have nothing but Love. I can't respond with negativity, so I'm turning the other cheek. You win.

 

[walt]

I know that the Bible says that, so there is no need for me to post the verses, but what do you think that means?
How did God create all things through Jesus Christ?

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6
5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. New International Version (NIV)

These three scriptures reveal three ways things are done through Jesus.

 

[walt]

Jesus said many different things but we have to read what He said in context. Just off the top of my head, here are some things that Jesus said that a child would not understand, but I think these are very important verses for adults to understand, if they want to have eternal life in heaven.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

I used to question more than I do now! Now I focus a little more on the good things said by Jesus, his Father or an Apostles.

I look for things easy to understand, in full agreement to build kind of a foundation before I go on to more difficult scriptures, sometimes scriptures are very easy to understand and very direct, and they can't be understood 3 different ways.

If I second-guess to many things what will have left to believe in? You have believe in something, you just try do your best like anything in life and eventually you end up in the best place.

 

[walt]

How does Jesus explain it?
Can you show me any verses where Jesus said that He created all things?
The verses below are not Jesus speaking.

Colossians 1

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

I will give you a heads-up. I believe that verses 3 and 4 are about God, not about Jesus.
All things were made by God since God created the heavens and the earth. In God was life and the life was the light of man.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Actually I believe exactly like you just explained. I agree with you. John 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

I could not find Jesus explaining anything about this subject.

The Apostle Paul says at, 1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one
Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.