Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Brian2]

You do know that means that Jesus did not rise in the same physical body that died on the cross.
Physical bodies are not immortal, so they cannot live forever in heaven (1 Cor15:50)

The disciples who saw Jesus after He rose saw him in his immortal spiritual body
Likewise, the disciples who saw him ascend to heaven (Acts 1:10-11) saw his spiritual body go up.

Jesus is alive in heaven in His immortal spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

1Cor 15:42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

It is true, our perishable and mortal bodies cannot inherit something that is lasts forever. We would die and not live to enjoy our inheritance.
That is why it says that our earthly bodies (the ones we have now) are buried in brokenness, but raised in glory, buried in weakness, but raised in strength. (verse 43)
Our natural bodies, which are mortal, are raised as immortal bodies, and even if some of His disciples have not died when Jesus returns to raise and take His disciples and take them, their natural bodies will be transformed into immortal spiritual bodies.
Spiritual bodies however does not mean bodies that are spirits.
The word "spiritual" does not mean that.

1 Corinthians 15:44—Is the resurrection body material or immaterial?

Is there a Bible contradiction in 1 Corinthians 15:44? Here’s the solution from When Critics Ask by Geisler and Howe; used by permission.

defendinginerrancy.com

 

[Soapy]

Jesus did tell them that and God did tell them that.
The prophecies for the return of Christ are all in the OT and the NT for people to parse out if they really want to know.

The Bible foretold the Coming of a Promised One who would be the return of Christ, who is also and the Messiah that the Jews have been waiting for. All the prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled and the messianic age prophecies are in the process of being fulfilled and will be fulfilled during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah, which will last no less than 1000 years. If people really want to know the truth about Baha'u'llah they would look at those prophecies and how they were fulfilled. The Bible is amazingly accurate.

All that is explained in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.

Some of the prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are depicted in the following 10 minute video.

The point of another Prophet was to help us build the kingdom of God on earth.

Matthew 6:10 New International Version (NIV)
your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Jesus, He came with a new name.

As the Bible says Christ would return with a new name, so we know he would not be called Jesus.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man.

So your man is the new ‘Jesus’? That’s odd!

Jesus says not to believe anyone who came in his name so the trick is to make the satanic one come in a different name, ‘Baha'u'llah’?

He speaks with a voice resembling the true one and misleads the world… sorry but that’s already been achieved by Trinitarians.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

There have always been Christians that opposed the trinity, they only narrowly lost the vote in the synod that established the trinity as doctrine. And they were crushed by both the church and the emperor but never completely eradicated. Ideas are extremely difficult to defeat.

Why is there so much of this around lately?

Because the church has lost its power over the minds of people. People are now free to think for themselves

How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

I do not,Jesus is not god he is believed to be the Son of God.

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

I do not, we should only worship God.

And why is it treated in such a light manner?

He is not treated in a light manner, his teachings are the foundation of Christianity.

 

[Rival]

Seriously, are there any orthodox Christians on here?

Imo, this flavour heterodoxy is nonsensical. I wonder why it's so well-represented here?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe that verse means that when God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us.
God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh.

All of this, and more, is why the correct translation of John 1:1 ends, “…and the Word was a god.”

It does NOT say, “….and THE god was THE word”; it says,
“….and god was THE word.”

No definite article — “the” (“ho” in Greek) — is there.
Even a trinitarian theologian recognized that:

Highly respected scholar and Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says regarding that verse ...."Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (1965, NY), p. 317


He further stated:
“The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are Gk (Greek) philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(Italics and bold type are mine.) (New York, 1965), p. 899.

 

[Soapy]

1Cor 15:42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

It is true, our perishable and mortal bodies cannot inherit something that is lasts forever. We would die and not live to enjoy our inheritance.
That is why it says that our earthly bodies (the ones we have now) are buried in brokenness, but raised in glory, buried in weakness, but raised in strength. (verse 43)
Our natural bodies, which are mortal, are raised as immortal bodies, and even if some of His disciples have not died when Jesus returns to raise and take His disciples and take them, their natural bodies will be transformed into immortal spiritual bodies.
Spiritual bodies however does not mean bodies that are spirits.
The word "spiritual" does not mean that.

1 Corinthians 15:44—Is the resurrection body material or immaterial?

Is there a Bible contradiction in 1 Corinthians 15:44? Here’s the solution from When Critics Ask by Geisler and Howe; used by permission.

defendinginerrancy.com

Both you and Trailblazer have no real idea what you are arguing about.

A body is merely grouping together of physical chemical elements. The body of insects and the body of higher animals and humans are no different to each other in their collective being… they are structures designed to hold a Spirit that controls the mechanics of those bodies and to maintain them by ingesting other chemical elements (feeding) and defending against being eaten by other bodies controlled by Spirits.

In our present state a human body is perishable in that the Spirit of a human cannot eternally maintain it - the body decays (ages) and cannot renew itself no matter how much the Spirit attempts to try to do so. So all humans will eventually die (of course this applies dvdn more to the lower animals, birds, beasts, fish, insects, microbes, etc)

What therefore is a Spiritual body. A Spiritual body is one that is SELF-MAINTAINING and is not fixed in its complexed unity. This means that the Spirit that controls it can leave the Spiritual body and the body will dematerialise into the atmosphere while the spirit departs to Heaven (the realm of Spirits).

While the Spirit is in the body the body will need sustenance as usual, hurt or injury is easily mended (How Jesus and the apostles healed the lame, blind, sick, etc) and therefore, with continual renewal the Spiritual body is IMMORTAL.

In addition, since the Spiritual body can be dematerialised and materialised at Will by the Spirit that controls it, it can be easily seen how Jesus appeared in a sealed and locked room. The Spirit can ‘walk through walls’, and appear and disappear anywhere at will. There would thus be nothing surprising in such an action.
Jesus disappearing into a cloud is another example. He simply dematerialised his body as he rose into the air like dust rising up in a breeze.

The Spiritual body, as Jesus showed, is touchable, Will tire, will thirst, will need rest, but since it can be materialised anywhere whatever the need, it will be fully and immediately available.

The Spirit in the physical (normal) body needs to seek out sustenance, seek out a place to rest, need time to heal from hurt, and may not find it in time before serious damage takes place - like dying … The Spiritual body will never ever reach that state.

But it must be noted that holy Angel Spirits can materialise bodies… but they cannot be permanently maintained. Those bodies are not like a physical body, even a spiritual body… they are, in effect, just illusions, are only in appearance… Apparitions. Immediately the angel fulfils it’s commands from God, the body is dematerialised … and a human should never try to touch this type of body as there is tremendous power in it - and would be like touching a raw switched on unshielded high energy electricity power cable.

If you can visualise the above description then you can understand what physical and Spiritual bodies are.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Seriously, are there any orthodox Christians on here?

Imo, this flavour heterodoxy is nonsensical. I wonder why it's so well-represented here?

Nonsense? Really?

 

[Soapy]

You do see what a terrible mess the world is right now, don't you? The Christians are too often a part of the mess. Look how they went out to the world, colonized it, and made a mess of things. Of course today, you value your right to have your own opinion about the Bible. There was a time, you know, that wasn't allowed for at least a thousand years. That only ended when materialism and skepticism got momentum. Now, today we've got a lovely mix of materialism and fractured Christianity in the Christian West. Don't you think it's about time a Prophet came and provided a prescription for this mess? The world we of European stock (of which I am one) helped bring into being outside of the Christian West is really bad. The people who did this were Christian at the time.

Sorry to be so harsh, but this is intended to be a wake-up call.

The prescription has already been given:

• ‘This command I give to you: Love one another!’

Because the majority ‘hate’ their brothers the prescription cannot work.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Seriously, are there any orthodox Christians on here?

Why is RF a hive of heterodox nonsense.

I would suggest that Christians on this forum represent a fair cross section of those found around the world today.

I can not say that anyone that I have met including priests would vote an entirely straight ticket when it comes to Christian dogma.

Even if you were a dogmatic bible literalist you would also have to believe many things not actually found in the bible to be a trinitarian.

I would further suggest that not even Jesus thought of himself as God.

I give no particular overriding credence to ancient church members or their beliefs just because they were the first organisers of the Church. Just like us they were debating and trying to understand the nature of God and Jesus relationship to him. They were no better and perhaps no worse at doing this than we are. However we have a far wider knowledge base on which to come to our conclusions. Their decisions and interpretations are not binding on us in any way, anymore than ours will be on future generations. Nor did they accept that their Jewish origins and beliefs were binding on them.

All things including beliefs are inevitably subject to change. When things no longer change they die.

 

[Rival]

I would suggest that Christians on this forum represent a fair cross section of those found around the world today.

I can not say that anyone that I have met including priests would vote an entirely straight ticket when it comes to Christian dogma.

Even if you were a dogmatic bible literalist you would also have to believe many things not actually found in the bible to be a trinitarian.

I would further suggest that not even Jesus thought of himself as God.

I give no particular overriding credence to ancient church members or their beliefs just because they were the first organisers of the Church. Just like us they were debating and trying to understand the nature of God and Jesus relationship to him. They were no better and perhaps no worse at doing this than we are. However we have a far wider knowledge base on which to come to our conclusions. Their decisions and interpretations are not binding on us in any way, anymore than ours will be on future generations. Nor did they accept that their Jewish origins and beliefs were binding on them.

All things including beliefs are inevitably subject to change. When things no longer change they die.

This is just repackaged Protestantism.

 

[Soapy]

I would suggest that Christians on this forum represent a fair cross section of those found around the world today.

I can not say that anyone that I have met including priests would vote an entirely straight ticket when it comes to Christian dogma.

Even if you were a dogmatic bible literalist you would also have to believe many things not actually found in the bible to be a trinitarian.

I would further suggest that not even Jesus thought of himself as God.

I give no particular overriding credence to ancient church members or their beliefs just because they were the first organisers of the Church. Just like us they were debating and trying to understand the nature of God and Jesus relationship to him. They were no better and perhaps no worse at doing this than we are. However we have a far wider knowledge base on which to come to our conclusions. Their decisions and interpretations are not binding on us in any way, anymore than ours will be on future generations. Nor did they accept that their Jewish origins and beliefs were binding on them.

All things including beliefs are inevitably subject to change. When things no longer change they die.

The truth does not change and certain does not die. Many will try to hide it and certainly many will try to destroy it - all to no avail.

God is one deity. That’s what was told to the Israelites. They were living among tribes that believed in and worshipped MANY DEITIES …

The deity, the God, believed on by the Israelites were told to believe in ONLY ONE GOD.

This is what Trinitarians try to hide… that the Israelites were to worship ONE and ONLY ONE God.

This is the reason Trinitarians decided to claim that ‘One’ means ‘a conglomerate of THREE PERSONS’ AS that ONE GOD!!

But ask them to show you where is told to anyone —- they cannot — because it is not true at all.

Check this, also: How did ‘The Son’ come about… One group of Trinitarians will tell you that he was ETERNALLY with the Father… and another will try to tell you that ‘He was the first of the great works of the Father’… both, and indeed, neither, are true.

Also, we know and agree with Trinitarians that God is IMMUTABLE (cannot change) since God is PERFECT in all His ways. But a perfect uncreated Being CANNOT become imperfect.

What could make it so if it were possible? There is nothing that perfection desires… Imperfection desires that something that makes it imperfect - Is subject to temptation. Often it will seek out something that is not wholesome in the wrongful thought thus making itself even less perfect. BUT God desires NOTHING so there is NO TEMPTATION that could be set before God.

So, the claim that God became an imperfect human Being is quite frankly, complete nonsense.

Moreover, can Trinitarians answer this question:
If Jesus is God, separate from the Father,

• Is Jesus GREATER THAN the Father because Jesus is BOTH (claimed) GOD AND MAN?

or:

• Is Jesus LESS THAN the Father because Jesus is BOTH (claimed) GOD AND MAN?

I have asked this question many times andhave not yet received a valid reply (for quite understandable reasons!!!)

 

[metis]

Do you pray to Jesus, too?

Not really, but I do believe his emphasis on "love one another" is the direction we should be going.

 

[SLPCCC]

When I asked the question back in #551:

Why is it that Jesus says that he will raise himself up when he dies instead of saying that his father will raise him up?​

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

No one answered using scriptures; instead, it was said:

• "He did not say his body was a temple, but he spoke of the temple of his body."
• "Actually to understand that he was speaking of the temple of his body and not his body itself, is very important."

He knew he was going to be resurrected. He was faithful unto death. And the temple of his body was not his fleshly body. As you quoted in John 2, when Jesus was raised from the dead, and his disciples saw him, they remembered his saying. The fact that he was raised from the dead should prove he died. He didn't half-way die.

What?? Isn't this wordplay avoiding the question and twisting scripture? It doesn't matter which one he meant. The point/question is why he says
"I will raise it up" instead of saying that his father will raise him up?

LOL. Are you making this up, or are you getting this from the Darkweb? Come on! It's about the resurrection.

John 10:17-18; 2:19 “…I lay down My life that I may take it again....Destroy this temple, and in three days I [Jesus] will raise it up.”

 

[SLPCCC]

Was Jesus' Body Raised, or Was it a Spiritual Resurrection?
​

All four Gospels say that Jesus' tomb was empty. If Jesus’ body was not raised, where did it go? What was raised? What is so miraculous?” The idea that Jesus’ body was discarded while his spirit rose seems to require more faith than acceptance of the bodily resurrection.

In Luke 24:39, the risen Jesus says to the disciples, “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have”. How much clearer do the Scriptures have to be? Jesus clearly rose with a supernatural transformed body. But it was his body and not an immaterial body. Sure, spirits have transformed in the past into bodies. But in Jesus' case, it was a body resurrection. A fulfillment of John 2:19--22.

• John 2:19-22, Jesus says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Two verses later, it is made clear what Jesus has in mind; “he spoke of the temple of his body.”​

Jesus prophesied that his body would rise. Which it did.

 

[Spice]

The Gospel of John is different. Jesus is not represented as a mere man.

The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” (John 10:33)

Ah, but it's my understanding that the Gospel of John is the doctrine set for the Hellenistic recipients of the Good News, and therefore, as with nearly all decisions made for organized Christianity by the 6th century councils, the ancestral beliefs of potential converts needed to be woven into the creeds, therefore multiple gods needed to be incorporated into monotheism...thus The Trinity. It certainly helped with the evangelism to Europe, east Asia, the Americas, etc.

 

[Spice]

And we have this exchange in John 8:57-58:

The Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am,"​

The "I am" is often taken to be associated with God's naming of [him]self in Exodus 3:14, and thus a claim to be God, but that isn't compatible with John's Jesus's many express and clear denials that he's God eg ─

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”​

​

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me ..​

​

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”​

​

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

.

The "I am" statement does support the doctrine of reincarnation held by the Essenes of the times, which is believed my many, myself included, to be the sect both JtB and Jesus belonged. This is supported by the solo wilderness pilgrimages, and having no wives by either, as well as the comparisons to the Pharisees teachings, not to mention the Nativity Magis from the east indicating influences from both Zoroastrianism (Iran) and Buddhism (India).

 

[walt]

People that believe in the Trinity are defending Jesus words and they love Jesus very much, but if you think about it isn't most everyone trying to defend Jesus and his words from a different perspective?

Aren't we all just trying to understand and do what Jesus says?

 

[Spice]

So on what basis do people believe in Christianity at all if they have no Tradition?

Simply, believing the teachings and living/dying example given by the man known as Jesus The Christ, to be the guide to living with God, is the only core to "Christianity." All the rest is man-made doctrine.

 

[Trailblazer]

Spiritual bodies however does not mean bodies that are spirits.
The word "spiritual" does not mean that.

No, it does not mean that we are spirits. Our bodies will have some kind of form, but it won't be made up of physical elements.
Below is what the Baha'i Writings say about the form our body will take after we die and cross over to the spiritual world (heaven).

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

 

[Trailblazer]

So your man is the new ‘Jesus’? That’s odd!

No, Baha'u'llah was not the new Jesus. There is only one Jesus. Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Jesus.

Jesus says not to believe anyone who came in his name so the trick is to make the satanic one come in a different name, ‘Baha'u'llah’?

Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Jesus, He came with a new name.

The Bible says Christ (not Jesus) would return with a new name, so we know he would not be called Jesus.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man. It would not be Jesus Christ.

He speaks with a voice resembling the true one and misleads the world… sorry but that’s already been achieved by Trinitarians.

Baha'u'llah did not mislead the world. He was the Spirit of truth who led us unto all truth, just as the Bible says would happen.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.