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Why the Electoral College anyway?

Skwim

Veteran Member
In light of the fact that Trump just won the Presidential election, not because more people voted for him than Clinton, which they didn't, but because the Electoral College determined he should win, I think this is a fair and pertinent question. To explain:

"Why do we use such a bizarre system anyway?
The electoral college is, essentially, a vestigial structure — a leftover from a bygone era in which the founding fathers specifically did not want a nationwide vote of the American people to choose their next president.

Instead, the framers gave a small, lucky group of people called the “electors” the power to make that choice. These would be some upstanding citizens chosen by the various states, who would make up their own minds on who should be the president (they’d have to vote on the same day in their respective home states, to make it tougher for them to coordinate with each other).

The Constitution remained silent on just how these elite electors would be chosen, saying only that each state legislature would decide how to appoint them. Initially, some state legislators picked the electors themselves, while other states had some form of statewide vote in which the electors themselves would be candidates.

But over the new nation’s first few decades, two powerful trends in American politics brought attention to the Electoral College system’s shortcomings — the rise of national political parties that would contest presidential elections, and the growing consensus that all white men (not just the elite) should get the right to vote, including for president.

The parties and states responded to these trends by trying to jury-rig the existing system. Political parties began to nominate slates of electors in each state — electors they believed could be counted on to vote for the presidential nominee. Eventually, many states even passed laws requiring electors to vote for their party’s presidential nominee.

Meanwhile, by the 1830s, almost every state had changed its laws so that all electors were chosen winner-take-all through a statewide vote, according to Richard Berg-Andersson. The point of all this was to try to make the presidential election function like ordinary statewide elections for governor or senator, at least within each state."

Is there any hope that the US will ditch the Electoral College someday?
For decades, polls have shown that large majorities of Americans would prefer a popular vote system instead of the Electoral College. For instance, a 2013 Gallup poll showed 63 percent of adults wanted to do away with it, and a mere 29 percent wanted to keep it.

But to ditch the Electoral College entirely, the US would have to pass a constitutional amendment (passed by two-thirds of the House and Senate and approved by 38 states) — or convene a constitutional convention (which has never been done, but would have to be called for by 34 states). Either method is vanishingly unlikely, because each would require many small states to approve a change that would reduce their influence on the presidential outcome.

source and an excellent explanation of the College


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BSM1

What? Me worry?
Suppose the popular vote was the only way to elect the President. Couldn't a candidate with the backing of some very, very deep pockets promise five or six of the most populous states the sun and moon and steal the election? Or supposing it was determined that a particular candidate was a raving lunatic but still got the popular vote? The Electoral College can use their power to keep scenarios such as this from happening. No matter how you feel about the Electoral College, it is probably one of the wisest and fairest method or electing a president. Again, another example of the vision processed by the Founding Fathers of this country.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
I support the electoral college. Even when it produces results like electing a sexual predator to office with disturbing Hitleresque mannerisms.

sigh. Making me question my support, no doubt. But..

Yeah.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Couldn't a candidate with the backing of some very, very deep pockets promise five or six of the most populous states the sun and moon and steal the election?
Help me out, can't this still be done now? Hillary did prove that she can put up competitive numbers despite calling in less states than Trump. Theoretically, couldn't a candidate pay particular focus/finances to CA, TX, NY, and FL? That would net them 151 right off the top. Certainly not enough to win, but a heck of a headstart.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
So when the Democrats win it no one cares about it. But when the Republicans win there is suddenly a problem afoot.

Oh my.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
So when the Democrats win it no one cares about it. But when the Republicans win there is suddenly a problem afoot.

Oh my.
I already said that I support the electoral college either way, even if this go-around has disappointed me deeply.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
So when the Democrats win it no one cares about it. But when the Republicans win there is suddenly a problem afoot.

Oh my.
Trivia time! Who can name all of the elections in which the president lost the popular vote and was elected into office anyway?! GO!

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  • In 1824 Andrew Jackson won the popular vote but got less than 50 percent of the electoral votes. John Quincy Adams became the next president when he was picked by the House of Representatives.
  • In 1876 Samuel Tilden won the popular vote but lost the election when Rutherford B. Hayes got 185 electoral votes to Tilden’s 184.
  • In 1888 Grover Cleveland won the popular vote but lost the election when Benjamin Harrison got 233 electoral votes to Cleveland’s 168.
  • In 2000 Al Gore won the popular vote but lost the election to George Bush. In the most highly contested election in modern history, the U.S. Supreme Court stopped the Florida recount of ballots, giving Bush the state’s 25 electoral votes for a total of 271 to Gore’s 255.

If we include Hillary's recent defeat, that would make five. Interestingly, if we assess this by current party standards, in all five elections it has favored the republican candidate. No real conclusion here, just interesting.
 
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Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
On threads at RF as well as at other discussion forums I've participated in, the topic of the electoral method of electing the President has invariably brought out defenders of this anomalous method of electing a government executive. Now, twice in 16 years this method has given us a President who did not get the national popular vote. In 2000, we got an idiot puppet who could barely read from a teleprompter. Now we have gotten lunatic idiot who will undoubtedly be even more of a puppet, who can't understand why using nuclear weapons is a bad thing, and who brags about wanting to “bomb the sh*t out of” someone.

In 2000, we got a President whose administration, at the very least, couldn't understand what was meant by communication intercepts and other intelligence that spelled out the fact that al Qaeda was planning to attack the US soon (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/30/AR2006093000282.html ), whose national security team couldn't “have imagined . . . using planes as a missile” (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/08/rice.transcript/ ), even though such scenarios were routinely warned of, and military exercises involving terrorists hijacking planes were happening that the very day.

If US Presidents were elected by national popular vote, the world would undoubtedly be a very different kind of place today, and we can only imagine that the world will be a very different place in the next four years, and probably beyond, than what would it be if the President were elected by national popular vote.

I think everyone should pester his/her state representatives to adopt the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, so that the world can begin to look like the sort of place where the President is elected by the majority of US voters: http://www.nationalpopularvote.com
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Suppose the popular vote was the only way to elect the President. Couldn't a candidate with the backing of some very, very deep pockets promise five or six of the most populous states the sun and moon and steal the election?
What does that mean? How does a candidate "steal the election" if s/he gets the majority vote?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
In the days of slow transportation & a widely dispersed population, the electoral college made more sense than counting all the popular votes. Nowadays, we could handle it. The loss in power for the smaller states doesn't strike me as a problem because it meant they have proportionately too much now. So what if candidates won't campaign there? That's their good fortune.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I support the electoral college. Even when it produces results like electing a sexual predator to office with disturbing Hitleresque mannerisms.
Why do you support such an irrational method of electing the President?

Do you also support such an irrational method of electing your state governor?
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Since the federal government was simply meant to be a federation amongst the sovereign States, it is the States that vote for the President of the federated Republic - not the People. The Electors represent the States.

The internal laws of each State (e.g. popular vote, etc.) determine how the State as a whole votes through its Electors.

(Side note: The People were meant to be citizens of their respective States. There were originally no citizens of the federal United States, until the advent of the 14th Amendment. So, to this day, there are:

1. Citizens of States who are simply nationals of the several united States (the original intent);
2. Citzens of States and simultaneously dual citizens of the United States (D.C. & territories);
3. citizens of the United States who are not Citizens of a State.

As an interesting note, citizens of the United States only possess privileges, not rights, per the 14th Amendment).
 
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Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So when the Democrats win it no one cares about it. But when the Republicans win there is suddenly a problem afoot.
The anomaly of the candidate who lost the popular vote winning the White House anyway has only happened twice in my lifetime. Both times it was the Democratic candidate who won the popular vote but the Republican candidate who got to be President.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Help me out, can't this still be done now? Hillary did prove that she can put up competitive numbers despite calling in less states than Trump. Theoretically, couldn't a candidate pay particular focus/finances to CA, TX, NY, and FL? That would net them 151 right off the top. Certainly not enough to win, but a heck of a headstart.
Yeah, persuade Texas to vote like California and New York. Problem solved.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Yeah, persuade Texas to vote like California and New York. Problem solved.
Sure, right now it is a long shot. But if we subscribe to the idea the widespread bribery can impact the election (which I am sure it could), Texas would be a target.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Since the federal government was simply meant to be a federation amongst the sovereign States, it is the States that vote for the President of the federated Republic - not the People. The Electors represent the States.
The electors do not "represent the state" in Maine and Nebraska.

The state-winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes was not used by a majority of states in the first several elections. The Constitution authorizes states to choose how they will award their electoral votes.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
The electors do not "represent the state" in Maine and Nebraska.

The state-winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes was not used by a majority of states in the first several elections. The Constitution authorizes states to choose how they will award their electoral votes.
The electors do represent the State, in Maine and Nebraska. These States have simply internally chosen another method to allocate their Electors, besides the winner-takes-all method.
 
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