Why the forbidden fruit?

[YoursTrue]

A dog can know that it should not get on the couch. This is not the same as a dog having moral sentience.

Would you say that dogs have the same type of thinking that humans do? I ask because God did not give dogs (or gorillas, etc.) the warning.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, I'm sorry, I fervently disagree. A dog knows it needs to stay off the couch but that is not the same as a dog having moral sentience.

So you then agree that the consciences of dogs and men are different?

 

[dybmh]

You cannot mix up the two stories. You cannot pretend like they are connected.

Clearly I disagree. But does it matter?

What matters, at least to me, is you asked a question at the beginning of the thread. It's been 5 pages. Do you still have a question, or do you feel like you know that answer to your satisfaction?

 

[YoursTrue]

In the story of Adam and Eve, God forbids them to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It seems to imply that God did not want them to know good from evil. Why would that be? And does that strike you as not wanting them to spiritually grow?

Speaking of which, do you think that people supporting the infamous Hitler knew right from wrong?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Would you say that dogs have the same type of thinking that humans do? I ask because God did not give dogs (or gorillas, etc.) the warning.

I think that the level of thinking between dog and human is so big, that it is essentially qualitative.

For humans to have remained ignorant about morality would be to say humans would have remained at teh same level as other animals.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So you then agree that the consciences of dogs and men are different?

the foundations of moral thought are empathy and a sense of justice. While dogs show themselves capable of a certain amount of empathy, I have seen no evidence that they have a sense of justice.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Clearly I disagree. But does it matter?

What matters, at least to me, is you asked a question at the beginning of the thread. It's been 5 pages. Do you still have a question, or do you feel like you know that answer to your satisfaction?

I feel that people have done their best to answer me, and I appreciate their patient replies. But I have yet to see even one person acknowledge that it is concerning that God would not want us to have developed a conscience.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Speaking of which, do you think that people supporting the infamous Hitler knew right from wrong?

Some did. some didn't. Among those that did, they did a wonderful job compartmentalizing and rationalizing their wrong.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think that the level of thinking between dog and human is so big, that it is essentially qualitative.

For humans to have remained ignorant about morality would be to say humans would have remained at teh same level as other animals.

It has to do with love and respect for God. By humans. God would have taught them, as we can see from the scriptures. Just like a parent is supposed to teach a child. A good parent, imho, does not leave a child to figure what's good or bad for himself. He gives guidance and help to that child.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some did. some didn't. Among those that did, they did a wonderful job compartmentalizing and rationalizing their wrong.

Again -- we have a certain amount of free choice. The miserable conditions mankind has caused and lived through is an indication to me that they do not put God first in their lives. God gave the Law to Israel. He told them what He wanted. That you seem to insist God wanted Adam and Eve "ignorant" really isn't making sense to me. Because -- He was telling them that He was the provider, the teacher, the one looking out for their interests as humans. They showed Him, the first human couple, that -- they did not WANT that. And so what was the result?

 

[YoursTrue]

I feel that people have done their best to answer me, and I appreciate their patient replies. But I have yet to see even one person acknowledge that it is concerning that God would not want us to have developed a conscience.

That is what I don't understand about what you are saying. "We" have consciences. Our consciences are different. Would you say all consciences are in harmony with God's will? Does He approve of everyone's actions? What do you think?

 

[YoursTrue]

the foundations of moral thought are empathy and a sense of justice. While dogs show themselves capable of a certain amount of empathy, I have seen no evidence that they have a sense of justice.

I like nice dogs and cats. I see videos that they can do very nice, sweet, and interesting things. Also some not so nice things. But God did not give dogs and cats an injunction, did He?

 

[DNB]

Your Christian theology of the need for a savior from sins is NOT at all related to the question of why God preferred for adam and eve to remain ignorant. Again, please do not bring into the thread other subjects that are not related to the opening post.

Why are you evading all the points that I brought up, and accusing me of having a Christian bias - nothing that I said, outside of one line, had anything to do with Christianity, and even then, that was re-articulated in order to avoid the lack of common ground?

 

[dybmh]

I feel that people have done their best to answer me, and I appreciate their patient replies. But I have yet to see even one person acknowledge that it is concerning that God would not want us to have developed a conscience.

Didn't you get a winner rating to the OP? That's acknowledgement.

Yup! You got three winners. So people definitely agree with you and have acknowledged your position.

 

[Brian2]

No, I'm sorry, I fervently disagree. A dog knows it needs to stay off the couch but that is not the same as a dog having moral sentience.

I'm not sure what moral sentience is but we seem to agree with the question about whether Adam and Eve had a conscience concerning eating the fruit. They did know they should not eat the fruit and so they had a conscience about it just as the dog knows it should stay off the couch and so has a conscience about it.
Of course for a dog it was a matter of teaching the dog through repetition and punishment or reward and so that the dog learned through "sinning" (so to speak) but for A@E it was a once statement about the fruit and they learnt from that without actually experiencing the results of disobedience in their own guilt feelings or in the warning about the eating actually happening to them.
God did not want to teach A@E through their repetition of sin and guilt. It was the one sin that brought the consequences.
Learning about good and evil that way and as a result of not being able to or it seems, even wanting to control themselves even when they knew what was evil has led to us humans knowing about good and evil and not being any better than A@E and not even learning from the experience of A@E and listening to and trusting God when it comes to such things.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why are you evading all the points that I brought up, and accusing me of having a Christian bias - nothing that I said, outside of one line, had anything to do with Christianity, and even then, that was re-articulated in order to avoid the lack of common ground?

Once you started preaching, I simply didn't read the rest of your post. I had no reason to think you would stay on subject.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I like nice dogs and cats. I see videos that they can do very nice, sweet, and interesting things. Also some not so nice things. But God did not give dogs and cats an injunction, did He?

are you talking about in the myth, or in real life?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Again -- we have a certain amount of free choice. The miserable conditions mankind has caused and lived through is an indication to me that they do not put God first in their lives. God gave the Law to Israel. He told them what He wanted. That you seem to insist God wanted Adam and Eve "ignorant" really isn't making sense to me. Because -- He was telling them that He was the provider, the teacher, the one looking out for their interests as humans. They showed Him, the first human couple, that -- they did not WANT that. And so what was the result?

This is just too far from the question of the opening post, but thanks. If you can't acknowledge that there is a problem inherant in the plot of the story, we don't really have much to discuss.

 

[YoursTrue]

are you talking about in the myth, or in real life?

What are you talking about? If you are presenting the description of the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and consciousness or conscience, and you think it's a myth, there is no discussion.

 

[YoursTrue]

This is just too far from the question of the opening post, but thanks. If you can't acknowledge that there is a problem inherant in the plot of the story, we don't really have much to discuss.

I agree because you think possibly it's a myth (therefore no discussion) and that God wanted Adam & Eve to remain ignorant. So yes, the discussion is over. Thanks anyway for letting me know. It's been interesting, though, to see how people think.