Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[Skywalker]

A day isn't fulfilled.
Jesus is no where.
Next random comment?

Jesus and being Jewish aren't mutually exclusive. The two can go beautifully together. Yom Kippur and Jesus’ Sacrifice – Caspari Center

Does Yom Kippur have meaning for those seeking to follow Jesus today? Yes. Yom Kippur allows us to reflect on the immeasurable grace of God found in our Messiah Jesus. Instead of apprehension about whether we’ll be inscribed in the Book of Life from year to year, Jesus’ followers can embrace his fulfillment of this day with deep gratitude.

 

[rosends]

Jesus and being Jewish aren't mutually exclusive. The two can go beautifully together. Yom Kippur and Jesus’ Sacrifice – Caspari Center

Yes they are.
No they can't.
Next?

 

[Skywalker]

Yom Kippur doesn't need any fulfiling.

Jesus fulfilled the law. Matthew 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes they are.
No they can't.
Next?

Being Jewish and Christian are not mutually exclusive. The first Christians and Jesus were Jewish and the Old Testament mentions Jesus. Who is the angel of the Lord? | GotQuestions.org

Who is the angel of the Lord?
Question: "Who is the angel of the Lord?"

Answer: The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “the angel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form.

 

[rosends]

Being Jewish and Christian are not mutually exclusive. The first Christians and Jesus were Jewish and the Old Testament mentions Jesus. Who is the angel of the Lord? | GotQuestions.org

Yes they are.
Who cares.
No it doesn't.
Next?

 

[Skywalker]

Yes they are.
Who cares.
No it doesn't.
Next?

Being Jewish doesn't mean you don't believe in Jesus it means you do Jewish stuff, like celebrate the Jewish festivals that are mentioned in the scriptures. The Old Testament talks about the Trinity. Trinity: Oneness in unity not in number: Yachid vs. Echad

Yachid vs. Echad: The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word the has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God ("yachid" or "bad").

Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus fulfilled the law. Matthew 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Don't change the subject. A day doesn't get fulfilled. LIke I said, Yom Kippur doesn't need fulfilling.

 

[Harel13]

You do not seem to understand. The Jewish movement that became the Rabbinic Movement is simply one movement within the Abrahamic religion and this specific schism does not own the texts and traditions of the original religion. The Old Testament ARE Christian traditions as well though they may interpret them differently.

No, you don't seem to understand. Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. It's not a Jewish one. If you really want to, as you folks say, "graft" yourself onto some form of Judaism, Karaism is probably more your thing, because they also believed that the majority of Jews "invented" "rabbinic judaism".

The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions

Evidence?

I also encourage Messianics to study the earliest Jewish traditions so as to understand what early Judaism was like and how it's schizms evolved as they did.

Hah! That'll be the proverbial day, when Messianics admit that just about everything they do in their totally-non-Orthodox-based churchy "synagogues" is based on what Orthodox Jews do (yep, those that received these things from "the rabbis", who "invented" everything), and just mixed it up with Jesussian stuff. On that day, they'll probably turn Karaite. Karaite Christians. Has an interesting ring to it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Just an aside.

For Christians who quote the NT as if it proves something about Jesus, his supposed actions, the history and theology around the NT, or 1st century Israeli history it is important for you to re-read the OP.

If you read the OP you should understand that quoting the NT doesn't convince Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews of anything you are trying to claim. It actually shows us the opposite of what you are tryting to claim.

Further, quoting the NT doesn't always convince your fellow Christians of your points so it would definately not convince those of us who see the entire NT text is being non-authentic, in-accurate, and authored by what we called (עובדי עבודה זרה) "Those who do Avodah Zara."

Literally, you might as well be quoting from the Necronomicon instead because for Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews, and even many non-Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews, the NT is on the same ground as books like the Necronomicon, the Mormon writings of Joseph Smith, or any of works that Christians don't agree with.

 

[rosends]

Being Jewish doesn't mean you don't believe in Jesus it means you do Jewish stuff, like celebrate the Jewish festivals that are mentioned in the scriptures. The Old Testament talks about the Trinity. Trinity: Oneness in unity not in number: Yachid vs. Echad

No it doesn't.
No it doesn't.
Next?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You asked me this question already?

Unanswerable because the math God does when judging you is beyond my ability and your ability and includes variables no human can know, account for or calculate. That's why we don't try to haggle with God. We do what we are commanded to do to the best of our abilities and we ask forgiveness for what we don't do or do wrong.

You should live as you are, a non-Jew. Why try to be something you are not?

Not an answer at all, of course--because all non-Christian religion is the same non-answer. "Be good and hope for the best."

The Christian answer IS an answer--no one logically can live in a utopia and sin/hurt others. The Christian trusts Yeshua today, per the Bible, for eternal life, than is not only forgiven but TRANSFORMED when meeting Yeshua in person.

In Heaven, per the Bible, I'll still be me but without the propensity to break God's commandments.

 

[dybmh]

The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions while many of the earliest Christians retained them.

Evidence?

+1 ^^

@Clear, would you please provide some evidence of the early textual traditions of both for comparison?

Thank you,

 

[rosends]

Not an answer at all, of course--because all non-Christian religion is the same non-answer. "Be good and hope for the best."

Where did I say "hope for the best"? Instead it is "do what you are supposed to, apologize for the mistakes and God takes care of the rest." That's called faith.

The Christian answer IS an answer--no one logically can live in a utopia and sin/hurt others. The Christian trusts Yeshua today, per the Bible, for eternal life, than is not only forgiven but TRANSFORMED when meeting Yeshua in person.

Ah, "trust" -- your version of "faith." Look. Same non-answer.

In Heaven, per the Bible, I'll still be me but without the propensity to break God's commandments.

That's great! Way to hope for the best!

 

[Clear]

Hi Harel13

Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “

You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”.

Like most movements, Judaism had schisms.
The latter rabbinic movement is simply a schism of earlier Judaism.
After the destruction of the Jerusalem temple it became more Dominant, perhaps.
But a schism nonetheless.


Clear claimed “The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions.”
Harel13 said : “Evidence?”

Harel13, describe what your Judaism teaches about what God was doing before he began to create this earth and lets look at those traditions first.


Clear
ακφυνεσιω

 

[Harel13]

Hi Harel13

When replying to someone, I recommend either tagging them, or quoting their post, so they'll know you're talking to them.

Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “

You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”.

My comment was based on things you've said on this thread, for example, post 202. I exaggerated a bit for effect.

Harel13, describe what your Judaism teaches about what God was doing before he began to create this earth and lets look at those traditions first.

One midrash says that God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them. What'd your god do, create a "word"?

 

[Clear]

Hi @Harel13 (I will try to remember to tag or quote you so you know I have responded - thank you for the reminder).

Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548)
Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”.
Like most movements, Judaism had schisms.
The latter rabbinic movement is simply a schism of earlier Judaism.
After the destruction of the Jerusalem temple it became more Dominant, perhaps.
But a schism nonetheless." (post #554)
Harel 13 responded : "I exaggerated a bit for effect." (post #555)

There is a difference between an "exaggeration" and a "deception".
I never claimed the modern Jewish Rabbinic Movement "came out of nowhere".
Your claim that this is a "Christian view" is also a deceptive statement.
This is not how Christianity typically views Rabbinic Judaism.


Clear claimed “The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions.”
Harel13 said : “Evidence?” (post #548)
Clear asked : "Harel13, describe what your Judaism teaches about what God was doing before he began to create this earth and lets look at those traditions first." (post # 554)
Harel13 responded : "One midrash says that God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them. What'd your god do, create a "word"?" (post #555)

The ancient Christian God was Jehovah of the Old Testament. And so, yes, before he created this world, he had other creations such as the several hundred words you referred to.
I think this is a good start in examining Rabbinic Traditions and which ones they have and which they abandoned.

What else was God doing before creation besides creating other worlds in the traditions of the Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish movement?

Clear
ακσεφυτζω

 

[Harel13]

Your claim that this is a "Christian view" is also a deceptive statement.
This is not how Christianity typically views Rabbinic Judaism.

Really. Quite a great number of Christians I've spoken with online hold some version or other of this view. I guess online Christians are all fringe. Who knew.

What else was God doing before creation besides creating other worlds in the traditions of the Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish movement?

Nothing comes to mind at the moment.

 

[Skywalker]

Hi @Harel13 (I will try to remember to tag or quote you so you know I have responded - thank you for the reminder).

Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548)
Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”.
Like most movements, Judaism had schisms.
The latter rabbinic movement is simply a schism of earlier Judaism.
After the destruction of the Jerusalem temple it became more Dominant, perhaps.
But a schism nonetheless." (post #554)
Harel 13 responded : "I exaggerated a bit for effect."

There is a difference between an "exaggeration" and a "deception".
I never claimed the modern Jewish Rabbinic Movement "came out of nowhere".
Your claim that this is a "Christian view" is also a deceptive statement.
This is not how Christianity typically views Rabbinic Judaism.


Clear claimed “The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions.”
Harel13 said : “Evidence?” (post #548)
Clear asked : "Harel13, describe what your Judaism teaches about what God was doing before he began to create this earth and lets look at those traditions first." (post # 554)
Harel13 responded : "One midrash says that God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them. What'd your god do, create a "word"?"

The ancient Christian God was Jehovah of the Old Testament. And so, yes, before he created this world, he had other creations such as the several hundred words you referred to.
I think this is a good start in examining Rabbinic Traditions and which ones they have and which they abandoned.

What else was God doing before creation besides creating other worlds in the traditions of the Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish movement?

Clear
ακσεφυτζω

Nobody really follows the Siniatic Covenant. People either follow the covenant of Jesus Christ or they follow the traditions of the rabbis. The New Covenant is a more natural and regular continuation of the Old Testament and gives an appropriate answer to the messianic hope of the Old Testament.

 

[Clear]

Hi @Harel13

1) REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT IT IS A "CHRISTIAN VIEW" THAT "THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE".

Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548)
Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”.
Like most movements, Judaism had schisms.
The latter rabbinic movement is simply a schism of earlier Judaism.
After the destruction of the Jerusalem temple it became more Dominant, perhaps.
But a schism nonetheless." (post #554)
Harel 13 responded : "I exaggerated a bit for effect." (post #555)
Clear responded : " There is a difference between an "exaggeration" and a "deception". I never claimed the modern Jewish Rabbinic Movement "came out of nowhere".
Your claim that this is a "Christian view" is also a deceptive statement. This is not how Christianity typically views Rabbinic Judaism. (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Really. Quite a great number of Christians I've spoken with online hold some version or other of this view. I guess online Christians are all fringe. Who knew." (post #557)

"Quite a great number" you've spoken with? No "exaggeration"?
If there have been "quite a great number" of Christians you have spoke with that believe "the Rabbinic Movement came out of nowhere", then will you give us merely 5 quotes that show Christians actually believe that "the Rabbinic Movement came out of 'nowhere'"?



2) REGARDING THE CHRISTIAN CLAIM THAT THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT ABANDONED SOME OF THE EARLY TEXTUAL TRADITIONS THAT THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS RETAINED

Clear claimed “The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions while many of the earliest Christians retained them.” (post #505)
Harel13 said : “Evidence?” (post #548)
Clear asked : "Harel13, describe what your Judaism teaches about what God was doing before he began to create this earth and lets look at those traditions first." (post # 554)
Harel13 responded : "One midrash says that God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them. What'd your god do, create a "word"?" (post #555)
Clear responded : "The ancient Christian God was Jehovah of the Old Testament. And so, yes, before he created this world, he had other creations such as the several hundred words you referred to. I think this is a good start in examining Rabbinic Traditions and which ones they have and which they abandoned.
What else was God doing before creation besides creating other worlds in the traditions of the Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish movement? (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Nothing comes to mind at the moment." (post #557)

So, you are saying that the only tradition that the rabbinic movement retained regarding what God was doing before creating this earth was that he was creating and then destroying other worlds?

No other traditions regarding this time period?

Do you want to do a bit of research and confirm this point that this is the only Rabbinic tradition that was retained concerning this time period before we proceed or are you comfortable with this description of only a single Rabbinic tradition concerning this time period?

Will another member of the Rabbinic Movement PM Harel13 if THEY know of any other Rabbinic traditions concerning this time period? (or simply post one if you are aware of one).


Clear
ακσεσιτζω

 

[Harel13]

So, you are saying that the only tradition that the rabbinic movement retained regarding what God was doing before creating this earth was that he was creating and then destroying other worlds?

No. I said that nothing comes to mind at the moment. I didn't realize I was talking to Clear, the human supercomputer who remembers every single source in the Christian compendium by heart.

Do you want to do a bit of research and confirm this point that this is the only Rabbinic tradition that was retained concerning this time period before we proceed or are you comfortable with this description of only a single Rabbinic tradition concerning this time period?

Not at the moment, and not merely because I never said anything of the sort (see above), but mostly because this still doesn't answer my question. Where are you going with this? Where's the evidence for your claim?