Why vegetarianism?

[Secret Chief]

I've been an omnivore for most of 65 years. I also still run long distances, have never had a hospital stay longer than a day and have low cholesterol. So there you go.

The contention in certain quarters here is that a vegetarian diet is not healthy, hence my self-description. Glad you have enjoyed good health, but an omnivore diet is not the one being criticised in this thread.

 

[Secret Chief]

Supposedly if you eat one meal with meat every 2 weeks, it's as healthy as being vegetarian, plus you can get the amino acids and vitamins that only animal products offer. I wish we could unevolve to not need meat to get B12 and other vitamins and minerals.

Sounds good. Plus you get to use the word flexitarian!

 

[Secret Chief]

You're obviously not healthy. Even if you are.

Actually, it's more like the Matrix. I believe that I'm fit and healthy but in reality I'm in a hospital bed wired up to a dozen intravenous drips.

 

[Secret Chief]

Are you Vegan?

Short answer yes. Longer answer: vegan at home, sometimes not when out (vegetarian).

Bad guess concerning the Baha'i beliefs. This needs further discussion. What is consistent with Baha'i beliefs is to consider problems of diet and insufficient food foe everyone is this should be considered on a world frame of reference.

OK, sorry.

The problem of the high cost of animals, land requirements, and processing an distribution meat products makes it difficult to feed the poorer population of the world.

Totally agree.

 

[Secret Chief]

I'm leaning towards vegetarianism/veganism because of health and growing ethical concerns. I still believe humans are omnivores. But we can choose what to eat, for the most part. We can also choose responsible and ethical means of sustenance.

Don't just believe it; we are omnivores.

 

[Valjean]

False. Actually, only a minority of what we give them is by-products. The majority is purpose-grown hay and grains.

In any case, their suitability for human consumption isn't the point. The point is that those products still have to be grown, and in doing so we kill lots of animals and insects, so the argument that I was responding to was fallacious.


I've never heard the argument that we could "feed more people" if we used the land to grow crops fit for human consumption. We already have enough food for people to eat, so why would we need more? The argument is more about the environmental damage caused by farms, and that re-wilding these areas would produce a lot of good.

Land use map:
Bloomberg Looks at U.S. Land Use

 

[Valjean]

Don't just believe it; we are omnivores.

That may be true, biologically, but we stopped behaving like normal, natural apes a long time ago.
Vegetarians are not rebelling against their biological dietary history, they're making an ethical choice.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Actually, it's more like the Matrix. I believe that I'm fit and healthy but in reality I'm in a hospital bed wired up to a dozen intravenous drips.

Oh well. So long as you’re happy.

 

[1213]

Why do I choose vegetarianism?

I believe animals do have souls
Animals do feel pain, they get scared and other negative feelings
Animals is also very itelligent. More intelligent than what human thought earlier

And it is more climate-friendly to not eat meat
...
Any thoughts? Why are you vegetarian or vegan? Why do you eat meat?

If I would eat plants, I would eat the food of animals and possibly kill them. That is why I think it is better to eat meat.

I don't know are animals intelligent. But, I think many humans are not intelligent either, I think it is not a good reason to eat them.

I think eating plants is no more climate-friendly than eating animals. Possibly it is the opposite. Plants grow on CO2 and they produce O2. Killing them is bad for environment, if we believe CO2 is a problem. I think it is not.

I don't believe animals have souls. But, I believe they can suffer and that is why, if people kill animals, it should be done in a way that doesn't cause much suffering.

Biggest question for me in vegetarianism is, how to get B12 vitamin. It seems to be difficult to get it, without eating meat and by what I know, the vitamin is very important.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Sounds good. Plus you get to use the word flexitarian!

I realized that later. Great word!

 

[Vinayaka]

You're obviously not healthy. Even if you are.

Yeah, if I'm dead, I guess I'm not exactly healthy. But those guys over at the heart clinic who were told to cut down on meat are jumping for joy about that.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Land use map:
Bloomberg Looks at U.S. Land Use

This is actually startling. We actually use more land to produce cattle feed than we use to grow plants to feed ourselves, and we use more land for grazing cattle than we do for literally anything else. Really eye-opening.

 

[Quintessence]

What's a "person" to you?

It can be hard to describe, but at core one could think about it in terms actors, maybe? People are the actors on the world stage. They are the rocks and the rivers, the sun and the moon, the soil and the sky, the squirrels and the songbirds, the ferns and the mosses, the ants and the spiders, the viruses and the amoebas, the whales and the sea cucumbers, the wind and the rain, and on and on....

They shape and are shapers and are shaped in turn. All part of the interconnected, interdependent weave that is our world. We tend to think of them as individual actors, as persons, but one could also see larger patterns, a weave, an intertwined organic and inorganic system that makes a whole not quite described by the sum of its parts.

In practice, this means how one treats various actors comes down to direct and personal relationships. When I've thought about this, I think this is true whether one is an animist or not. The foundational reason why a human will or won't eat a certain other actor on the world stage is because of the relationship they have with that actor and the values that articulate from that, plus a smattering of cultural traditions mixed in.

Eating something is a very sacred and intimate relationship we don't think a lot about in our culture. You are taking the essence of that person into your body and it is becoming part of you. Being eaten is not a dishonor, but a profound connection between those two actors. The eaten lives on within the eater by sustaining their very life! So for me, the key is to respect the prey and treat it well. It is less about what one eats, but how it was treated when it was living and respecting the sacrifice of life-for-life.

 

[Left Coast]

It can be hard to describe, but at core one could think about it in terms actors, maybe? People are the actors on the world stage. They are the rocks and the rivers, the sun and the moon, the soil and the sky, the squirrels and the songbirds, the ferns and the mosses, the ants and the spiders, the viruses and the amoebas, the whales and the sea cucumbers, the wind and the rain, and on and on....

They shape and are shapers and are shaped in turn. All part of the interconnected, interdependent weave that is our world. We tend to think of them as individual actors, as persons, but one could also see larger patterns, a weave, an intertwined organic and inorganic system that makes a whole not quite described by the sum of its parts.

In practice, this means how one treats various actors comes down to direct and personal relationships. When I've thought about this, I think this is true whether one is an animist or not. The foundational reason why a human will or won't eat a certain other actor on the world stage is because of the relationship they have with that actor and the values that articulate from that, plus a smattering of cultural traditions mixed in.

Eating something is a very sacred and intimate relationship we don't think a lot about in our culture. You are taking the essence of that person into your body and it is becoming part of you. Being eaten is not a dishonor, but a profound connection between those two actors. The eaten lives on within the eater by sustaining their very life! So for me, the key is to respect the prey and treat it well. It is less about what one eats, but how it was treated when it was living and respecting the sacrifice of life-for-life.

In general, "actor" denotes someone who takes conscious action. It's bizarre to think of the pillow I'm laying against as an "actor." It seems as though "person," to you, just means...things? Stuff? What would a non-person look like, to you?

For me, my ethical issue with eating meat doesn't require me to identify animals as "people." Just as conscious beings capable of suffering and pain. If we don't need to cause them suffering and pain, I see no reason to do so.

 

[Secret Chief]

Oh well. So long as you’re happy.

Hey, who wants the red pill.

PS just read this and it made me larf:
"In May 2020, Elon Musk tweeted "Take the red pill", agreeing with a Twitter user that it meant taking a "free-thinking attitude and waking up from a normal life of sloth and ignorance". Ivanka Trump retweeted this, stating "Taken!" Lilly Wachowski, a director of The Matrix, responded to this exchange with " **** both of you" "
- Red pill and blue pill - Wikipedia

 

[Quintessence]

In general, "actor" denotes someone who takes conscious action.

What does "conscious" mean and how do you decide who is and isn't conscious? Why do you select this quality as a litmus test?

No need to really answer here, just worth asking oneself these things. I think there's way too much emphasis placed on the inevitably anthropocentrically-defined and nebulous concept of "consciousness" for my liking. I pretty much cringe whenever that word comes up.

It's bizarre to think of the pillow I'm laying against as an "actor." It seems as though "person," to you, just means...things? Stuff? What would a non-person look like, to you?

Different animistic cultures and individuals designate things in different ways, so there's not really any standard. In comparative studies, a lot of it circles back to relationships - where a person or tribe recognizes the deep significance of a relationship or a connection with something it's understood as a person. An heirloom passed down through generations. Something you painstakingly crafted by hand and consecrated in ritual. The very land upon which you depend for your livelihood and existence. It's wherever you find meaning. So, if you've got deep meaning and a connection with your pillow, it's regarded as a person. Otherwise, it is not... though your culture might inform certain standards if you were growing up in an animist culture instead of a non-animist one.

For me, my ethical issue with eating meat doesn't require me to identify animals as "people." Just as conscious beings capable of suffering and pain. If we don't need to cause them suffering and pain, I see no reason to do so.

Fair. I think a lot of humans are way too anthropocentric in their measure of these things, though, just as they are with how they understand "consciousness." Plus, pain and suffering are an inevitable part of living. Change is always happening with the give-and-take, creation-and-destruction, making-and-unmaking. It's up to each actor to determine how they want to navigate that reality based on the relationships they have with various actors.

 

[metis]

Most animal feed is not "crops". Most animal feed is vegetable by-products that humans cannot eat.

Most corn grown today in the States is for livestock, plus there's a serious water issue, especially with cattle, that drink enormous amounts of water.

 

[metis]

Most of the maize grown here in the states goes to feeding livestock, as a matter of fact, and the industry involves a lot of other deleterious effects, as well.

Feed conversion ratios make the meat and dairy inefficient, as do water ratios, with something like 56% of water usage in the US going to raise livestock. Enteric and manure fermentation significantly contribute to global warming, as well. Then there is the disposal problem of massive quantities of untreated manure and urine.

Ah, ya beat me to da punch!

 

[Secret Chief]

If I would eat plants, I would eat the food of animals and possibly kill them. That is why I think it is better to eat meat.

I don't know are animals intelligent. But, I think many humans are not intelligent either, I think it is not a good reason to eat them.

I think eating plants is no more climate-friendly than eating animals. Possibly it is the opposite. Plants grow on CO2 and they produce O2. Killing them is bad for environment, if we believe CO2 is a problem. I think it is not.

I don't believe animals have souls. But, I believe they can suffer and that is why, if people kill animals, it should be done in a way that doesn't cause much suffering.

Biggest question for me in vegetarianism is, how to get B12 vitamin. It seems to be difficult to get it, without eating meat and by what I know, the vitamin is very important.

B12 is in lots of things these days. Random eg: The plant milk carton I'm currently using lists it.

 

[metis]

Biggest question for me in vegetarianism is, how to get B12 vitamin.

Eat dirt!

Seriously, that's where B12 ultimately comes from, so thoroughly peeling and/or scrubbing vegetables creates that shortage. However, one can also take a B12 pill-- problem solved.