Why Verses appeared to be Sorcery?

[InvestigateTruth]

Quran 34:43

"And when Our signs are recited unto them as clear proofs, they say, “This is naught but a man who desires to turn you from that which your fathers used to worship.” And they say, “This is naught but a fabricated perversion.” And those who disbelieve say to the Truth when it comes to them, “This is naught but manifest sorcery"


Why did they say, the Signs that are recited to them, are nothing but manifest sorcery?

Here is another translation :


"For [thus it is:] whenever Our messages are conveyed unto them in all their clarity, they [who are bent on denying the truth] say [to one another], “This [Muhammad] is nothing but a man who wants to turn you away from what your forefathers were wont to worship!” And they say, “This [Qur’an] is nothing but a falsehood invented [by man]!” And [finally,] they who are bent on denying the truth speak thus of the truth when it comes to them: “This is clearly nothing but spellbinding eloquence!”

 

[Link]

It says that's what they say when the truth comes to them. Quran says the truth came of Pharaoh with clear miracles as signs from Moses (a). So here it's similar.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Why did they say, the Signs that are recited to them, are nothing but manifest sorcery?

Because speaking in sign language a word jumps to a seemingly unrelated word within a sentence. It is how the messengers talk.
People wrongly interpret the words, thinking it is talking about doing supernatural magic/miracles, but its not.


How can one thing be as another? Not magic. The words share the same position.


It works like this:
"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Sea - River - Steam

The word river, is exactly the same as the word oil, as they share the same position.

Signs, miracles, prophecies work in this way. It is a way of speech. Weaving words into different positions.

There is no magic mentioned.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It says that's what they say when the truth comes to them. Quran says the truth came of Pharaoh with clear miracles as signs from Moses (a). So here it's similar.

And declare, “The truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Indeed, falsehood is bound to vanish.” 17:81


"And Allah blots out falsehood and establishes truth with His words." 42:24


Seems that, Truth, is opposit of falsehood. People believed in falsehood, then the Prophet brought the Truth to them.


If Miracle intended by the Truth, what Miracle did Joseph bring to His people?

 

[Link]

"And Allah blots out falsehood and establishes truth with His words." 42:24

There is this hadith about 42:23 and 42:24 that says Imams (a) are the words of God meant here (since the context of the verse before is about loving Ahlulbayt (a) and the reward accusation):

وفي تفسير القمي حدثني أبي عن ابن أبي نجران عن عاصم بن حميد عن محمد بن مسلم قال سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول في قول الله عز وجل { قل لا أسألكم عليه أجراً إلا المودة في القربى } يعني في أهل بيته. قال جاءت الأنصار إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فقالوا إنا قد آوينا ونصرنا فخذ طائفة من أموالنا فاستعن بها على ما نابك فأنزل الله عز وجل { قل لا أسألكم عليه أجراً إلا المودة في القربى } أي في أهل بيته. ثم قال ألا ترى أن الرجل يكون له صديق وفي نفس ذلك الرجل شيء على أهل بيته فلا يسلم صدره فأراد الله عز وجل أن لا يكون في نفس رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم شيء على أُمته ففرض الله عليهم المودة في القربى فإن أخذوا أخذوا مفروضاً، وإن تركوا تركوا مفروضاً. قال فانصرفوا من عنده وبعضهم يقول عرضنا عليه أموالنا فقال لا. قاتلوا عن أهل بيتي من بعدي، وقال طائفة ما قال هذا رسول الله وجحدوه وقالوا كما حكى الله عز وجل { أم يقولون افترى على الله كذباً } فقال عز وجل { فإن يشأ الله يختم على قلبك } قال لو افتريت { ويمح الله الباطل } يعني يبطله { ويحق الحق بكلماته } يعني بالأئمة والقائم من آل محمد عليه السلام { إنه عليم بذات الصدور }. أقول وروى قصة الأنصار السيوطي في الدر المنثور عن الطبراني وابن مردويه من طريق ابن جبير وضعّفه.

The relevant part:

"and he verifies the truth with his words" meaning the leaders and the riser from the family of Mohammad (a).

Surah Bayana also shows the clear proof to be Mohammad (s).

If Miracle intended by the Truth, what Miracle did Joseph bring to His people?

One of the miracles per Shiite hadiths is that at the aftermath he married the lady who tried to subdue him and she had became blind and I think had another type of fatal disease, and he cured her and also removed her blindness. From what I recall, he also made her young again.

While the Quran doesn't say the details of the miracles after, it does say he did come with clear proofs.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is this hadith about 42:23 and 42:24 that says Imams (a) are the words of God meant here (since the context of the verse before is about loving Ahlulbayt (a) and the reward accusation):

وفي تفسير القمي حدثني أبي عن ابن أبي نجران عن عاصم بن حميد عن محمد بن مسلم قال سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول في قول الله عز وجل { قل لا أسألكم عليه أجراً إلا المودة في القربى } يعني في أهل بيته. قال جاءت الأنصار إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فقالوا إنا قد آوينا ونصرنا فخذ طائفة من أموالنا فاستعن بها على ما نابك فأنزل الله عز وجل { قل لا أسألكم عليه أجراً إلا المودة في القربى } أي في أهل بيته. ثم قال ألا ترى أن الرجل يكون له صديق وفي نفس ذلك الرجل شيء على أهل بيته فلا يسلم صدره فأراد الله عز وجل أن لا يكون في نفس رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم شيء على أُمته ففرض الله عليهم المودة في القربى فإن أخذوا أخذوا مفروضاً، وإن تركوا تركوا مفروضاً. قال فانصرفوا من عنده وبعضهم يقول عرضنا عليه أموالنا فقال لا. قاتلوا عن أهل بيتي من بعدي، وقال طائفة ما قال هذا رسول الله وجحدوه وقالوا كما حكى الله عز وجل { أم يقولون افترى على الله كذباً } فقال عز وجل { فإن يشأ الله يختم على قلبك } قال لو افتريت { ويمح الله الباطل } يعني يبطله { ويحق الحق بكلماته } يعني بالأئمة والقائم من آل محمد عليه السلام { إنه عليم بذات الصدور }. أقول وروى قصة الأنصار السيوطي في الدر المنثور عن الطبراني وابن مردويه من طريق ابن جبير وضعّفه.

The relevant part:

"and he verifies the truth with his words" meaning the leaders and the riser from the family of Mohammad (a).

Surah Bayana also shows the clear proof to be Mohammad (s).

Yap, and Imams being the "word of God", does not prove, it means Miracles.

It means, God establishes truth, by appointing Imams (Not performing miracles) To expound and interpret for people.

One of the miracles per Shiite hadiths is that at the aftermath he married the lady who tried to subdue him and she had became blind and I think had another type of fatal disease, and he cured her and also removed her blindness. From what I recall, he also made her young again.

While the Quran doesn't say the details of the miracles after, it does say he did come with clear proofs.

Yap, again, "blind" means "Spiritually blind, and not being able to see the truth", and curing means opening her Spiritual eyes, so, she was able to see the truth and recognize the words of God.
Nothing about Miracles in a physical sense.

And if you say it means, "literally here eye became blind and then was cured", then I ask you: How was this Miracle was seen and verified by all the people at the time?

Beaide this, why it is not mentined in the Quran?

Are you not following the advise of your Prophet and Imam who said:


Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from ibn Faddal from Ali ibn ‘Uqba from Ayyub ibn Rashid from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"Of Hadith whatever does not agree with the holy Quran is a useless statement."

Recorded in Al-Kafi,
H 200, Ch. 22, h 4

 

[Link]

Yap, and Imams being the "word of God", does not prove, it means Miracles.

It means, God establishes truth, by appointing Imams (Not performing miracles) To expound and interpret for people.

Miracles are a display of Imams and the power they been given by the spirit breathed into them, which is the holy spirit.

Yap, again, "blind" means "Spiritually blind, and not being able to see the truth", and curing means opening her Spiritual eyes, so, she was able to see the truth and recognize the words of God.
Nothing about Miracles in a physical sense.

Did you read the hadith though? Was Yaqoub (a) also spiritually blind?

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from ibn Faddal from Ali ibn ‘Uqba from Ayyub ibn Rashid from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"Of Hadith whatever does not agree with the holy Quran is a useless statement."

Recorded in Al-Kafi,
H 200, Ch. 22, h 4

If it is what you mean, we could not pray Salah since the details are missing at least explicitly in the Quran.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

If Miracle intended by the Truth, what Miracle did Joseph bring to His people?

It is said Joseph gathered the corn as the sand of the sea. It is a clear sign.

"And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number". Genesis

Corn is a word that means grain, and the corn/grain is for making bread.

And if you look again at what I showed you before of how things work, you can see the bread is as the sea (as the river is as oil).

It works like this:
"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Sea - River - Steam

Joseph speaks of dreams, like of the bread and the wine (also see above), and the dream of the cattle (kine) and the corn:

"O Joseph!" (he said) "O man of truth! Expound to us (the dream) of seven fat kine whom seven lean ones devour, and of seven green ears of corn and (seven) others withered: that I may return to the people, and that they may understand." Quran.

"The seven good kine are seven years; and the seven good ears are seven years: the dream is one". Genesis

It is true. The cattle and the corn are as one.

Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

The Quran also states there are signs of truth in Joseph and his brethren:
"Verily in Joseph and his brethren are signs (or symbols) for seekers (after Truth)". Quran.


In the Bible Ezekiel mentions a city with twelve gates each is named after Joseph and his brothers (the tribes of Israel)

Stating Joseph is an East gate, along with Benjamin:

"And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan". Ezekiel

Here Joseph is as sheep:
"Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth". Psalm

Here Benjamin is as wolf:
"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil". Genesis



In the Bible Isaiah speaks of the wolf with the lamb.

As you can see the wolf is with the lamb as Benjamin (wolf) is with Joseph (sheep) in the East.

Isaiah was just speaking the truth. But some people think saying the wolf being with the lamb is talking about a magical event (sorcery), when its clearly not.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Why did they say, the Signs that are recited to them, are nothing but manifest sorcery?

Consider this:

"And the mountains will be like wool" Quran 70:9

It is not sorcery. It is like I was trying to explain before.

Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

Valley, hill, mountain is as another three different measurements of height like sea, river, stream.

The Bible speaks of the corn of the valley:
The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm.

And the wine of the mountain:
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. Amos


I can see the word corn is in the same place as the valley, and the word wine in the place of the mountain:

Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Valley - Hill - Mountain

I notice mountain is the same word position as sheep.

Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Valley - Hill - Mountain

That is why the mountains are as wool.