Why Was Jesus Necessary?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

As they say, time will tell who is correct.
.

the classic, "my daddy will beat up your daddy when he gets home" taunts again?

Okay. It's not really very effective, if your "evidence" cannot be presented while everyone is still alive...

Interestingly enough, He was correct in the establishing of Israel again, was correct in the birth, death and resurrection and in so many other past realities.

So you can ask Him later.

Interestingly enough, that would be false claims on your part.

Birth? Not foretold in the OT, for a variety of reasons: wrong city, not descended of David, wrong name, etc, etc, etc. Jesus simply does not fit the OT narrative for 'messiah'. This could be why the Hebrews did not fall for the Con...

Death? Dismissed due to false "birth" claims, above.

Resurrection? Claim without a shred of evidence. See above.

Establishment of Israel? Ever hear of "self-fulfilled prophecy"?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

yes, nothing is immortal. only God is immortal and he can defeat death.

Except there is little reason to believe death was defeated...

More? Death seems far more powerful than your god, who succumbed to it's power at least once... and the Story is far from Over.

Who's to say this god of yours may yet die? (assuming it's even real, of course...)

Science now predicts the eventual Heat Death of the actual Universe itself. Which means that in the end, even god must Die.

So Death is the more powerful force...

 

[Kenny]

Interestingly enough, that would be false claims on your part.

Birth? Not foretold in the OT, for a variety of reasons: wrong city, not descended of David, wrong name, etc, etc, etc. Jesus simply does not fit the OT narrative for 'messiah'. This could be why the Hebrews did not fall for the Con...

Death? Dismissed due to false "birth" claims, above.

Resurrection? Claim without a shred of evidence. See above.

Establishment of Israel? Ever hear of "self-fulfilled prophecy"?

You, apparently, haven't read the Bible if that is your position.

I'm fine with you having your own philosophy.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You, apparently, haven't read the Bible if that is your position..

Nope. In direct contrast to you? I have read it-- which is why I understand that Jesus fails so many tests of 'Messiah' that it's actually laughable to claim otherwise.

Try reading the whole thing, not just the Cherry Picked™ parts, carefully selected by Bible Apologizers to create a False Narrative.

 

[Kenny]

Nope. In direct contrast to you? I have read it-- which is why I understand that Jesus fails so many tests of 'Messiah' that it's actually laughable to claim otherwise.

Try reading the whole thing, not just the Cherry Picked™ parts, carefully selected by Bible Apologizers to create a False Narrative.

As I said... apparently you haven't.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And, do you think that he simply bypassed the sin offering as if it didn't exist? Or do you think he simply said "OHHH, I'm forgiven so I don't need to follow the law of Moses" and commit another sin?

Or did you want it to be written about every step, thought and action he did after that?

Is there a reason why you are bypassing the reality of what the High Priest did once a year for the sins of Israel? Which, incidentally, typifies Yeshua Hamashiach's and His taking the curse of the law on the tree

I'm going to give you my opinion. I don't know what the Rabbis would say. Perhaps Rabbi O can chime in. I know that the sin offering is for unintentional sins -- every example given for it is an unintentional sin. There is only the offering on Yom Kippur to deal with. IMHO, this is for our benefit -- our psychology needs an assurance, needs something concrete.

It's the same reason we needed to build a tabernacle. The truth is that Hashem is everywhere. But as the saying goes, "God is everywhere and is everywhere ignored." This is why God instructed us "And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them." Exodus 25:8 What God meant is that we would KNOW that he dwelt among us. The truth was that God was among us always and everywhere.

We recite "On Rosh Hashana it is written, and on Yom Kippur it is seal [who will live and who will die in the coming year], but repentance, prayer, and charity will cancel the severity of the decree. This happens even without a sacrifice.

 

[Kenny]

I'm going to give you my opinion. I don't know what the Rabbis would say. Perhaps Rabbi O can chime in. I know that the sin offering is for unintentional sins -- every example given for it is an unintentional sin. There is only the offering on Yom Kippur to deal with. IMHO, this is for our benefit -- our psychology needs an assurance, needs something concrete.

It's the same reason we needed to build a tabernacle. The truth is that Hashem is everywhere. But as the saying goes, "God is everywhere and is everywhere ignored." This is why God instructed us "And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them." Exodus 25:8 What God meant is that we would KNOW that he dwelt among us. The truth was that God was among us always and everywhere.

We recite "On Rosh Hashana it is written, and on Yom Kippur it is seal [who will live and who will die in the coming year], but repentance, prayer, and charity will cancel the severity of the decree. This happens even without a sacrifice.

Yes, you are correct in some respect.

Lev 5:and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.

Lev 6:acommit a trespass against the Lord, and blie unto his neighbour in that cwhich was delivered him to keep, or ||in †fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath ddeceived his neighbour; ehave found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and fsweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: grestore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, ||†in the day of his trespass offering. ha ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: iAnd the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Lev 16 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid: betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. fhe shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. 22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.


These are known sins that even if they repent, a trespass offering is required.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

As I said... apparently you haven't.

As you said-- you'd be wrong. Again. Repeating your mistake won't fix it.

Ask any actual Jewish person, if Jesus matches the requirements for 'messiah'. See what sort of answer you'll get.

What's that? You prefer your Cherry Picked Bible™?

Yeah...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, you are correct in some respect.

Lev 5:and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.

Lev 6:acommit a trespass against the Lord, and blie unto his neighbour in that cwhich was delivered him to keep, or ||in †fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath ddeceived his neighbour; ehave found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and fsweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: grestore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, ||†in the day of his trespass offering. ha ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: iAnd the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Lev 16 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid: betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. fhe shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. 22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.


These are known sins that even if they repent, a trespass offering is required.

Good research

 

[Salvador]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


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Jesus served as a good human role model. If God were to just have forgiven everybody's sins without sacrificing Jesus, how would anybody have known this was done?

 

[1robin]

So how do imperfect creatures get into heaven unless they're forgiven? If god simply granted forgiveness to all, isn't everybody's sins abolished.

Yes it may be that God could technically hand wave sin away but that would not do justice to the significance of sin. The nature of sin is so diabolical that a price must be paid to remove the unbelievable debt that sin incurs. Can you imagine the total amount of destruction sewn by sin over the course of generation after generation. Simply saying "ahhh don't worry your pretty little sinful head about it" simply does no result in justice. It results in complacency. There are entire books devoted to just the one single issue you take so lightly. God must enact a penalty for every sinful act of he can't claim to be just. Can you imagine how appalled you would be and how many protests you would file if you saw Hitler waved through the pearly gates with a "don't worry, it was no big deal anyway". You sir are trivializing the momentous and complicating the obvious.

How do you know? And where is this written, in some cartoon you saw?

View attachment 24115​

I can't believe you would take one of the most profound (whether true or false) responses to a mankind's most monumental problem and trivialize it to the level of a humorless cartoon. What was the punch line to that train wreck even supposed to be?

I got what I posted from fairly simplistic and straightforward conclusions based on the most profound 175,000 words ever recorded. This concept is the climax for the bible and as Paul stated if untrue would leave all of Christian faith a meaningless wasteland. Now if you want to quote a particular claim one at a time I would be happy to post the relevant verses or philosophical principles that support it.​

Don't know where you come by this knowledge, but okay, for the sake of argument I'll go along with it.

This is the bible's preeminent doctrine, entire libraries full of books on the subject exist. Why do you think my conclusions were based on any kind of speculative guesswork concerning a vacuous subject?

Yeah, I always thought that it was pretty just and loving that those whose parents failed to obey his commands would be gobbled up by mom and dad.

Leviticus 26:29
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. ​

I don't understand what in the world you were trying to say above but if you want to do some proper exegesis on the meaning of Leviticus 26 let me know.​

Why? Why must they be punished? If this rule was written by god why couldn't he erase it? If he didn't write it then who did?

I sure am glad your not running the universe. If you wish to hand wave away what Hitler did or treat Stalin and Billy graham the same in the end good luck with all that.

And don't you find it just a bit sadistic of god to invest all humans with sin and then punish them for having it?

You can pretend that God forced you to sin if you want to waste your time but if your going to be honest you know the catalogue of your freely chosen sins (by the thousands) and all their damage is owned by no other than you. However, even though we caused all that sin and destruction God paid 100% of the unimaginable price to eliminate it eternally. The only roll you have is in saying yes to the sacrifice God made to make up for what we did all on our own.

If the crucifixion of Jesus expunges this requirement, why couldn't god do the same by the snap of his fingers? Did he suddenly lose the power to do as he wished?

He retained all his power by taking care of the sin problem in the exact manner he wished to and in my wildest dreams I couldn't have ever thought of a solution as profound a mysteriously beautiful. Who on earth are you to tell God he should have handled our sin problem in any other way. God's running the universe and all truth finds its ultimate home with him, by comparison we are morally bankrupt idiots barely able to partially run our own lives.

Which brings us back to my original question, If god is omnipotent---able to do whatever he wanted---Why Was Jesus Necessary? Why bring his son into the world just to have him tortured and executed when he didn't have to?---The snap of the fingers option sitting up there on the kitchen shelf.

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Sunday school children by the millions know the answer to your question. The only outstanding question is whether it is true, now what it is. If you can't see God's necessity in God's chosen plan after I explained at least the bare bones of how it works I am not sure I have any justification in explaining further. My perfectly placed shot seems to have bounced off your impenetrable chobham based bias armor without even leaving a scratch. Talk about the refusal to "not get it" at any and all costs. It was completely up to God (not you or any of the rest of us poor finite and faulty creatures) to determines God's response to the sin problem and I have explained Jesus' essential roll in that plan to have at least satisfied anyone's sincere curiosity.

 

[1robin]

Sure I don't mind, so long as you understand that it is not my intention to get you to stop being a Christian or to convert you to Judaism.

Don't worry about me converting. I believe Judaism is true but I believe it is only half (the lesser half) of a two part faith called Christianity.

Basically, when salvation is discussed in the Tanakh, it refers to very literal, very earthly salvation, such as being saved from slavery in Egypt, or being saved from one's enemies. It has no connotations of being "saved from one' sins." That is strictly a Christian idea developed by Paul.

Well then it has no relevance to my original post. My original post is dealing with our salvation before God for our lifetime of sin. Your merely referring to escaping a transitory hardship for a certain time period. Certainly we can agree which one of these two contexts is the most profound or significant.

Although Judaism believes in the world to come, our emphasis is not on the afterlife. In fact, not once in the Torah is anything like heaven mentioned. There is nothing in God's covenant with Israel that promises eternal life. We are concerned with THIS life, and how well we live it. It is our responsibility to heal our world, and return it to the paradise it once was.

I am not saying I agree with your interpretation of Judaism's eschatology but I am saying that if you are right it trivializes the faith. We are going to be dead for an infinitely longer time that we are alive in this life. So all things being equal I think the faith that deals with this far more important aspect of our total lives is the one that almost all of our attention should be directed towards. If life were water (analogy) the faith that deals with what concerns the contents of my cup than the one which concerns the contents of lakes and oceans.

Probably not the answer you were expecting.

I regard it more of a description than an answer.
Excuse my language but it seems your religion trivializes the momentous and complicates the obvious.

Instead of starting off by describing our faiths lets pick a subject first then see what each faith says about it.

The most important subject in human existence possible is the afterlife (salvation being one aspect of this). Would you like to discuss what each of our respective faith's has to say about this most important of all issues?

 

[Skwim]

Jesus served as a good human role model. If God were to just have forgiven everybody's sins without sacrificing Jesus, how would anybody have known this was done?

So were suppose to aspire to be like a god? A far better role model would be a human, who had all our faults, but did well.

.

 

[Salvador]

So were suppose to aspire to be like a god? A far better role model would be a human, who had all our faults, but did well.

.

There is no greater deed than for a man to give up his own life to save the lives of many others. As the Bible states, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Jesus served as a good human role model. If God were to just have forgiven everybody's sins without sacrificing Jesus, how would anybody have known this was done?

ummm.... a Public Service Announcement from Heaven?

No?

That's too much for god to do?

Yeah...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

There is no greater deed than for a man to give up his own life to save the lives of many others. As the Bible states, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Didn't stay dead, though-- so is the deed still great? It cost him a bit of mild inconvenience.

 

[1robin]

To Sum Up: The god you believe in? Is Weak, Inept and Rigid.

I think it is impossible to be both weak and rigid but who cares. Your going to have to construct at least some attempt at an argument proving all three of these claims before I can address any of them.

And not very creative, either: mere mortals can come up with at least a dozen alternatives that do not require BRUTAL TORTURE/MURDER.

The bible's solution to the sin problem of man is the most elegant solution to a problem exhibited in any form of literature or oral tradition but again you have not even attempted to construct an argument here to consider. You can always spot emotional bias because it Is nothing but a series of declarations devoid of even an attempt to show why any of them should be believed. There is not even a bad argument here. Just nothing but yelling at traffic.

Oh well-- that's what you get from Bronze Age Mythology: Primitive Brutality.

And this is what you get from a position founded 100% of emotion and not on a single piece of reasoned logic.

Try and review my post again, recalibrate, then form action arguments instead of coughing up every piece of sarcasm you can think of. There is nothing here to even consider except how emotionally biased you are. You don't disagree with Christian faith, you hate it, but can't you really express that seething resentment through a rational argument so all I get from you are incoherent complaints. Witnessing posts like this reaffirms my faith that spiritual warfare is alive and kicking. Look exactly like the stuff I used to say when I was an atheist who was pissed off at God for letting me mom die but has since become an embarrassing part of my past I try not to dwell on too much.

 

[Salvador]

ummm.... a Public Service Announcement from Heaven?

No?

That's too much for god to do?

Yeah...

Extraterrestrial intelligence has left its mark in our genetic code. Each codon relates to 3 other particular codons having the same particular type of initial nucleobase and sequential nucleobase subsequently then followed by a different ending nucleobase. Half of these 4 set of codon groups ( whole family codons ) each code for the same particular amino acid. The other half of those 4 set of codon groups ( split codons ) don't code for the same amino acid. So then, in the case of whole family codons, there are 37 amino acid peptide chain nucleons for each relevant nucleobase determinant of how a particular amino acid gets coded. Hence, the numeric and semantic message of PQN 037 gets unambiguously and factually conveyed to us descendants of our cosmic ancestor(s)with our genetic code invented by a superior intelligence beyond that of anybody presently bound to Earth.

37 is the second part of the message, the first half of the message is 0 which gets conveyed with our genetic code's start codon. So then, 0 combined along with 37 conveys the complete numeric and semantically meaningful message of 037.

We love and forgive our children, just as our cosmic ancestor(s) who invented our genetic code would have loved and forgiven the faults of its/their cosmic children.

 

[1robin]

But punishing people for crimes they didn't commit is unjust.

Not if that person willingly entered into that relationship on the behalf of those he was willingly saving.

Do you ever think about what you need to have to cough forth this moral demands on God?
1. First you need an objective moral code to exist (which is only possible if you have an objective moral law giver).
2. Then you need to make sure that moral code is independent of God. (impossible)
3. Then God must (somehow) be subject to that moral code. (Again impossible)
4. Then you need to be able to interpret that code perfectly despite your imperfection. (Virtually impossible).
5. Then you need to perfectly understand all the context the code and the act fall within. (Virtually impossible).
6. Then you need the mental mechanism which would allow perfect consideration of all these factors and render a perfect judgment. (Virtually impossible).
ETC...........

Can you produce any evidence what so ever you have any of these absolutely necessary requirements before you can start yelling out things that God must or must not do? I believing claiming to possess that which you must possess to meaningfully make moral demands of Go dis the highest level of arrogance even possible.

Unless all of the above is true your judgments of God are merely statements about whether God acted consistently with your flawed moral preferences or not. In a moral comparison between a sinful finite genetic anomaly and the source of all moral truth I think I know who I will go with.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not if that person willingly entered into that relationship on the behalf of those he was willingly saving.

No, that’s still unjust.

Punishing someone else accomplishes none of the objectives of justice. Not even if the innocent person being punished has agreed to it.

Unless the guilty are the ones who are punished, then the guilty are going unpunished. Even if you punish someone else for the crime, the guilty are going unpunished.

Do you understand what I’m telling you? I’m not sure if you do.