Why won't God go away?

[siti]

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away

That verse by Hughes Mearns reminds me of "God"...

At least from the time of Darwin and then Nietzsche, we have known that "God" is either redundant or dead, in the sense that there is no longer any need, as Laplace put it, "for that hypothesis" to explain either the origins of humankind (per Darwin) or the answers to the great philosophical questions that humankind perplexes itself with (per Nietzsche)...

And yet a century and a half on, there the "God" who isn't there still is!

There are various ideas about how "God" came to be in the first place...ranging from "he" was invented to keep the hoi polloi subservient, or to enable a priestly class to fleece the flock to "he" was invented as a means of enforcing morality as the sizes of human groups grew or to enable to answer insoluble mysteries by a appealing to magical supernaturalism ...etc. etc.

As Nietzsche foresaw, that "God" is dead...killed off by our own insatiable quest for ever more plausible answers to the questions that once only "God" held the answers to.

And yet, there the "God" who isn't there still is!

Why is that? Why have almost all human cultures foisted the burden of "God" upon themselves? And why do we still, 140 years after the announcement of "God's" death, do we still find it so difficult to divest ourselves of such a costly investment?

Is "God" encoded somehow in our cultural "DNA"? Did (does?) "God" really provide such a survival or group cohesion advantage that it has become inseparable from our collective cultural psyche, such that even those who doubt or even disbelieve, still have a sneaking suspicion that there's "something" there...something "bigger" than "mere" Nature?

Why is it so difficult to make "God" go away?

 

[LuisDantas]

It is mostly, I would think, because there are still so many people who have a certain role for it.

 

[siti]

Well yes...assuming (for the sake of discussion) that God doesn't really exist, and fails to meet any reasonable test of logical or philosophical necessity (at least any more)...presumably his continued presence amongst us serves some utilitarian purpose...

...but what purpose? What use is God? What good does God achieve that could not be got by other (less costly) means?

 

[McBell]

Well yes...assuming (for the sake of discussion) that God doesn't really exist, and fails to meet any reasonable test of logical or philosophical necessity (at least any more)...presumably his continued presence amongst us serves some utilitarian purpose...

...but what purpose? What use is God? What good does God achieve that could not be got by other (less costly) means?

Apparently god keeps millions and millions of people from raping and murdering.

 

[siti]

Apparently god keeps millions and millions of people from raping and murdering.

Well that (the old "morality argument" for God's existence) is more of a believers apologist argument...

...I'm really trying to figure out what genuine benefits...if there are any...has compelled societies through the ages to cling to such a costly notion...even, for the last century and a half, in the face of overwhelming evidence against it...

Why has our cultural evolution not weeded it out?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Perhaps because humans, being more than just material in nature, have a deep spiritual need which can only be fulfilled through conscious contact with the infinite, the ineffable, and the divine?

 

[LuisDantas]

Well yes...assuming (for the sake of discussion) that God doesn't really exist, and fails to meet any reasonable test of logical or philosophical necessity (at least any more)...presumably his continued presence amongst us serves some utilitarian purpose...

...but what purpose? What use is God? What good does God achieve that could not be got by other (less costly) means?

Which god? Some Abrahamic conception of same?

Those serve several social purposes, although not many of those are healthy. As Jim Starlin once described them, they are suitable vessels for directing thanks for good things and blame for bad things. They are a promise of conveniently uncomplicated answers and hopes for people in dire need of answers and hopes. And a source of secret prides and entitlements. Including, in the neopentechostal movements, access to magical rituals that are socially acceptable in Christian societies.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why is it so difficult to make "God" go away?

I can't see men's belief in God disappearing anytime soon. One explanation of course is that God really exists, and there is some truth to man's religious experience.

 

[LuisDantas]

I can't see men's belief in God disappearing anytime soon. One explanation of course is that God really exists, and there is some truth to man's religious experience.

Those, however, are two very separate things.

It is clear enough that religious experiences are both real and significant (although some care must be taken in the dealing with them).

The matter of whether and which god might conceivably exist and with which provisos is both very separate and of decidedly lesser significance; it just happens that some very widespread creeds claim otherwise for nigh unfathomable reasons.

 

[Koldo]

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away

That verse by Hughes Mearns reminds me of "God"...

At least from the time of Darwin and then Nietzsche, we have known that "God" is either redundant or dead, in the sense that there is no longer any need, as Laplace put it, "for that hypothesis" to explain either the origins of humankind (per Darwin) or the answers to the great philosophical questions that humankind perplexes itself with (per Nietzsche)...

And yet a century and a half on, there the "God" who isn't there still is!

There are various ideas about how "God" came to be in the first place...ranging from "he" was invented to keep the hoi polloi subservient, or to enable a priestly class to fleece the flock to "he" was invented as a means of enforcing morality as the sizes of human groups grew or to enable to answer insoluble mysteries by a appealing to magical supernaturalism ...etc. etc.

As Nietzsche foresaw, that "God" is dead...killed off by our own insatiable quest for ever more plausible answers to the questions that once only "God" held the answers to.

And yet, there the "God" who isn't there still is!

Why is that? Why have almost all human cultures foisted the burden of "God" upon themselves? And why do we still, 140 years after the announcement of "God's" death, do we still find it so difficult to divest ourselves of such a costly investment?

Is "God" encoded somehow in our cultural "DNA"? Did (does?) "God" really provide such a survival or group cohesion advantage that it has become inseparable from our collective cultural psyche, such that even those who doubt or even disbelieve, still have a sneaking suspicion that there's "something" there...something "bigger" than "mere" Nature?

Why is it so difficult to make "God" go away?

It is important to point that Nietizsche was speaking about Europe and that he died before the first World War. There was a considerable shift of power from Europe to the US after WW2, and even more after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. And whoever holds power takes over the reins of history. God is alive in the USA.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Those, however, are two very separate things.

You may be correct but are you not making an assumption without empirical evidence? I make no claim to have empirical evidence to prove they are connected but therein lies the problem. We simply don't know for certain because God if He exists may in essence be unknowable.

 

[LuisDantas]

You may be correct but are you not making an assumption without empirical evidence? I make no claim to have empirical evidence to prove they are connected but therein lies the problem. We simply don't know for certain because God if He exists may in essence be unknowable.

While that is true, that is also unimportant... and it comes with the territory.

The only two ways of being truly authoritative about the existence of gods are by claiming to be one or deciding that something else of known existence is one.

The main problem with discussion of matters relating to the existence of gods is that they are both free-style and meaningless. They amount to deciding which sort of horse we might conceivably be pulling with the cart that we are pushing with our own arms.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps because humans, being more than just material in nature, have a deep spiritual need which can only be fulfilled through conscious contact with the infinite, the ineffable, and the divine?

I've found that the gods most theists believe in are pretty finite, effable, and profane. I also don't see a lot of "conscious contact" with anything.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why is it so difficult to make "God" go away?

Well, it's the overwhelming evidence for God, of course!


I'm kidding, I'm kidding. In seriousness, though, I think the answer to that question has a lot of crossover with the answers to the question "what sort of social costs would a person pay for leaving their theistic religion?"

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away

That verse by Hughes Mearns reminds me of "God"...

At least from the time of Darwin and then Nietzsche, we have known that "God" is either redundant or dead, in the sense that there is no longer any need, as Laplace put it, "for that hypothesis" to explain either the origins of humankind (per Darwin) or the answers to the great philosophical questions that humankind perplexes itself with (per Nietzsche)...

And yet a century and a half on, there the "God" who isn't there still is!

There are various ideas about how "God" came to be in the first place...ranging from "he" was invented to keep the hoi polloi subservient, or to enable a priestly class to fleece the flock to "he" was invented as a means of enforcing morality as the sizes of human groups grew or to enable to answer insoluble mysteries by a appealing to magical supernaturalism ...etc. etc.

As Nietzsche foresaw, that "God" is dead...killed off by our own insatiable quest for ever more plausible answers to the questions that once only "God" held the answers to.

And yet, there the "God" who isn't there still is!

Why is that? Why have almost all human cultures foisted the burden of "God" upon themselves? And why do we still, 140 years after the announcement of "God's" death, do we still find it so difficult to divest ourselves of such a costly investment?

Is "God" encoded somehow in our cultural "DNA"? Did (does?) "God" really provide such a survival or group cohesion advantage that it has become inseparable from our collective cultural psyche, such that even those who doubt or even disbelieve, still have a sneaking suspicion that there's "something" there...something "bigger" than "mere" Nature?

Why is it so difficult to make "God" go away?

My guess would be because of fear of death, fear of the unknown, and the fact that there are still some big mysteries of the universe that haven't been solved and may never be solved.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You may be correct but are you not making an assumption without empirical evidence? I make no claim to have empirical evidence to prove they are connected but therein lies the problem. We simply don't know for certain because God if He exists may in essence be unknowable.

If God is unknowable, then belief in God is unjustifiable.

"There is no empirical evidence for God" implies "in every way we can observe or measure, all evidence is consistent with the conclusion that God does not exist."

 

[Starise]

This reminds me of an EV thread I frequent. Why haven't we positively adopted EVs yet? How long will it take for adoption to happen?
In this case it's a discussion about "un" adoption.

How do we remove a thing we percieve needs to be removed? Why is this thing weighing us all down? Why is it still here? This is a good question really.

I believe some things remain for good reason, but when the topic is 'god' it goes into several thoughts for me. If there is a God He can't go away, even if He exists in a place that He isn't as apparent as some would prefer.

In maybe similar ways a few evangelicals might ask, why hasn't atheism gone away? Why are there still people who believe there is a god?

If there is a God He will never go away, he can only be ignored. If there isn't a god. god help us

 

[RestlessSoul]

I've found that the gods most theists believe in are pretty finite, effable, and profane. I also don't see a lot of "conscious contact" with anything.

I’m sure there’s a lot you don’t see. But thanks for sharing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I’m sure there’s a lot you don’t see. But thanks for sharing.

But you do see my point, don't you?

The people with a long list of rules for humanity based on God's likes and dislikes and who are sure that Jesus has accepted them sure act like they've "effed" their God pretty thoroughly.

Mystery doesn't motivate action. People don't pray to "I don't know." They don't go to their church/temple/mosque/whatever for "I don't know." They don't tithe to "I don't know." Religious theists generally "eff" their gods pretty well until they're asked for reasons for why they believe what they believe.

 

[Quintessence]

It is mostly, I would think, because there are still so many people who have a certain role for it.

Yup. And the opening post squarely fails to characterize what gods are and what they do in the lives of those who accept them. But maybe they were intentionally just talking about God (aka, the god of Abrahamic religions) and not meaning to think about any of the other many understandings of gods throughout history. I don't know.