Why would gods use cultural diffusion?

[Koldo]

No, it'a actually what I said before: I love the imperfections. The lack of perfection is relevant to me.

What you call imperfection is not an imperfection if you prefer an imperfect thing over a perfect one.

 

[Koldo]

Yes, but also nothing would live, grow, getting to know... (if there was only perfection).

How did you reach this conclusion?

 

[dybmh]

What you call imperfection is not an imperfection if you prefer an imperfect thing over a perfect one.

It's the imperfection that I value, because flaws are opportunities. The process of improvement has value to me. Without imperfection, there isn't improvement. I don't value perfection as much.

 

[Koldo]

It's the imperfection that I value, because flaws are opportunities. The process of improvement has value to me. Without imperfection, there isn't improvement. I don't value perfection as much.

Then those flaws are not truly flaws but rather qualities. You have been mislabeling stuff all along.

 

[dybmh]

Then those flaws are not truly flaws but rather qualities. You have been mislabeling stuff all along.

OK, they're qualities which define imperfection, not perfection.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Most religions have a similar line about how foolish the unbelievers are. What then?

The foolishness of believers:
Are their different interpretations lame?

The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools. Proverbs 26:7


Can they be healed?
Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked? Ecclesiastes 7:13


Is their faith blind. Did they lose the path?
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? Luke 6:39



Can they not hear the words spoken?
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John 8:43


The lame, the blind, and the deaf.

.

 

[firedragon]

The foolishness of believers:
Are their different interpretations lame?

The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools. Proverbs 26:7


Can they be healed?
Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked? Ecclesiastes 7:13


Is their faith blind. Did they lose the path?
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? Luke 6:39



Can they not hear the words spoken?
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John 8:43


The lame, the blind, and the deaf.

.

Im curious to understand what you are saying here. What do you understand as "lame" here?

 

[Meow Mix]

A thought-provoking premise for a thread MM.

There are religions such as Judaism, Sikhism and Islam where the 'text' in its sacred language - Hebrew, Gurmukhī script and Arabic - is the paramount sacral focus and even given a kind of primordial status (i.e. there's a Jewish belief found in the Mishnah that God looked into the Torah while creating the world—that is, he used it as a blueprint as it were for his creation; Muslims likewise believe the Qur'an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated speech of Allah and Sikhs hold their Guru Granth Sahib ji to be infused with the spirit of the eternal Guru). In most branches of Hinduism or Vedanta, the Sanskrit Vedas are also regarded as nitya (eternal and uncreated), in my understanding.

With reference to your cultural diffusion argument, I think it likely does present a challenge to those religions that, in particular, claim to worship a universal and transcendent God who is the conscious agent or ultimate reality behind the entire universe, with (purportedly) a plan / message / divine order to impart to humanity at large.

This method of delivering - or discovering - an 'eternal' (without beginning or end) truth on the part of a prophet or mystic, who then conveys it via his / her contingent literary production, which is limited by its genesis and reception by readers / listeners in a given language with a certain phonetic word order in a script comprehensible only to those fluent and literate in that tongue and at a certain point in time.....yes indeed, I can see why this might all seem like an implausible mode of transmission for a timeless, self-existent and infinite Supreme Being who is omnipresent and sustains the entirety of the cosmos.

There's definitely an issue here, with the truth / revelation / message itself meant to be eternal and imperishable yet its manifestation is certainly not eternal, and actually can be relatively limited in its availability by a variety of linguistic, cultural, educational and geographical barriers.

When it comes to Christianity - and especially traditional Catholic and Orthodox Christianity - I think our approach to this issue is a bit distinct from the other faiths already mentioned. For one, the eternal truth is not associated with the written word so much as with a Person (which the written word testifies to), namely Jesus as God incarnate:


Pope Francis: 'The Word of God Precedes the Bible' (learnreligions.com)

Sacred Scripture is the written testimony of the divine Word, the canonical memory that attests to the event of Revelation. However, the Word of God precedes the Bible and surpasses it. That is why the centre of our faith isn't just a book, but a salvation history and above all a person, Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh.

It is precisely because the Word of God embraces and extends beyond Scripture that, in order to properly understand it, the Holy Spirit's constant presence, who guides us "to all truth," is necessary. ​

Scripture and Tradition

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles.
​

Christianity began in Jerusalem when disciples of Jesus of Nazareth proclaimed that he was the expected Messiah, after having a range of allegedly visionary experiences following his execution. From the earliest days, the church regarded itself as the guardian of a developing oral tradition supposedly passed down from these disciples, a portion of which was eventually committed to writing, in Koine Greek, in the form of the New Testament.

This sacred tradition was - and is - flexible and adapted quickly to a multiplicity of languages and cultures, resulting in a startling diversity of liturgical rites, each 'inculturating' the message of the gospel in a different language, with its own unique customs. I think Christianity harvested and acted upon what already existed. And that's because it's not a religion confined by one sacred language or culture.

As the Latin Church Father St. Augustine of Hippo wrote in his mammoth tome, The City of God (413–426 CE):


Philip Schaff: NPNF1-02. St. Augustine's City of God and Christian Doctrine - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

"This heavenly city [the Church], then, while it sojourns on earth, calls citizens out of all nations, and gathers together a society of pilgrims of all languages, not scrupling about diversities in the manners, laws, and institutions whereby earthly peace is secured and maintained, but recognizing that, however various these are, they all tend to one and the same end of earthly peace. It therefore is so far from rescinding and abolishing these diversities, that it even preserves and adopts them." (De civitate Dei Ch. XXV)​

The Anglican scholar, Professor John Barton of Oxford University, explained in relation to the apostolic Tradition:

“the earliest Christians perceived the traditions about Jesus as oral…it is well known that many of the Fathers cite sayings not recorded in any existing Gospel, the so-called agrapha. Certainly it is still true for Irenaeus that words of Jesus have an authority which has little to do with whether or not they stand in a written gospel…These traditions are cited as ‘what all Christians know’, not as facts attested by specific documents…Christians who saw things this way agreed in principle with Papias that, ‘I do not think that what was taken from books would profit me so much as what came from the living and abiding voice’’” (John Barton, Holy Writings, Sacred Text p.99).​

Moreover, when I read your words in the OP "it would be trivially easy to just implant whatever knowledge is supposed to be gleaned by the holy text directly into every newborn", I'm reminded of our actual doctrine of the semina verbi. The prologue to John's gospel affirms that “the Word [pre-incarnate Jesus] is the true light that enlightens every man coming into the world” (John 1:9):

"We have been taught that Christ is the First-born of God, and…that he is the logos of whom every race of men and women were partakers."​

(St. Justin Martyr 1997, First Apology, l.46)
​

St. Paul likewise informs us of pagans being able to access the 'natural law' of God inhering in every conscience and thus attaining salvation in Christ: "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness" (Romans 2:14).

And St. John Chrysostom (347-407), Archbishop of Constantinople and an important early church father, addressed this doctrine in his Homily 8 on the Gospel of John, in the context of an exegetical commentary on John 1:9:


CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 8 on the Gospel of John (Chrysostom)

"How then does He [the Word of God] light every man? He lights all as far as in Him lies [...] For the grace is shed forth upon all, turning itself back neither from Jew, nor Greek, nor Barbarian, nor Scythian, nor free, nor bond, nor male, nor female, nor old, nor young, but admitting all alike, and inviting with an equal regard."​

I’ll respond later today, on a pitiful amount of sleep right now.

 

[Koldo]

OK, they're qualities which define imperfection, not perfection.

If they were, you would never rather choose something that has them.

 

[dybmh]

If they were, you would never rather choose something that has them.

perfection and imperfection are mutally exclusive. If I prefer imperfection; I don't prefer perfection.

Imperfection != perfection by defintion.

Edit to add: Ya know... there's a such a thing as "too perfect".

 

[Shakeel]

Well, is the goal of a holy text to be read and understood by people: to transmit information to them?

I think that would better describe the purpose of revealing a holy book.

According to the Qur'an this life is a test. If people were created the way you suggest, there would be no test. That's what I mean when I say you assume a goal of your own to be the goal of God and the human race.

Still, there is something called fitrah in Islam.

The Fitrah

We (all people) have made a covenant with Allah and testified that He is our Lord.

7:172 "And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."'

The covenant taken from the sons of Adam is the fitrah - Islam Question & Answer

 

[Meow Mix]

I think that would better describe the purpose of revealing a holy book.

According to the Qur'an this life is a test. If people were created the way you suggest, there would be no test. That's what I mean when I say you assume a goal of your own to be the goal of God and the human race.

Still, there is something called fitrah in Islam.

The Fitrah

We (all people) have made a covenant with Allah and testified that He is our Lord.

7:172 "And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."'

The covenant taken from the sons of Adam is the fitrah - Islam Question & Answer

I got about halfway down this Q&A, I will finish it tonight. Had to wake up on 3 hours of sleep to pick up a friend from the hospital today, so I’m struggling to read. Need some sleep.

 

[Koldo]

perfection and imperfection are mutally exclusive. If I prefer imperfection; I don't prefer perfection.

Imperfection != perfection by defintion.

Edit to add: Ya know... there's a such a thing as "too perfect".

Let me show the logical contradiction:

1) Perfect is, by definition, better than imperfect.
2) To prefer something is to consider one thing better than the other.
3) To prefer something imperfect over what is perfect is therefore to consider what is imperfect better than what is perfect.
4) However, given #1 and #2, it is impossible to consider, fully aware, what is imperfect better than what is perfect.

 

[dybmh]

1) Perfect is, by definition, better than imperfect.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I gave 3 examples where perfect isn't better.

2) To prefer something is to consider one thing better than the other.
3) To prefer something imperfect over what is perfect is therefore to consider what is imperfect better than what is perfect.
4) However, given #1 and #2, it is impossible to consider, fully aware, what is imperfect better than what is perfect.

The logical chain failed for me at #1. Without it, the conclusion is not valid.

 

[1213]

I can introspect that I have no such knowledge. I have never understood this view: that skeptics somehow “know God exists,” but just deny it. We skeptics can immediately know any such worldview is wrong by mere introspection.

People can quite easily deceive themselves, when trying to avoid something they don’t like. But, difficult to see is it true. Still, I believe people feel deep in side of them that this is true.

 

[1213]

People like myself will assure you that we were given no such knowledge, why do you think I am lying?

Yes, no doubt you will assure so. But, how could I believe that? Don’t worry, we can let this be, you don’t have to agree with me. I only hope you speak truth to yourself.

…Who shall live on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly does what is right, And speaks truth in his heart…
Ps. 15:1-5

 

[Justanatheist]

Yes, no doubt you will assure so. But, how could I believe that? Don’t worry, we can let this be, you don’t have to agree with me. I only hope you speak truth to yourself.

…Who shall live on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly does what is right, And speaks truth in his heart…
Ps. 15:1-5

As I hope you are being honest with yourself when you make claims to know what you cannot possibly know. And please do not quote your magic writings it is highly offensive.
You see for me they are like quoting lines from a fairy tale at an adult, insulting to our intelligence.

 

[Meow Mix]

People can quite easily deceive themselves, when trying to avoid something they don’t like. But, difficult to see is it true. Still, I believe people feel deep in side of them that this is true.

I get it, but it’s like if I were to say you believe deep down that there’s an invisible dragon in the garage, that you just deny it because you don’t like it.

You would immediately be able to introspect this belief is wrong because it’s nonsensical. People don’t “know” things (yet deny them) without knowing that they’re doing that.

I’ve been in denial before (such as when a really powerfully emotional relationship ended), but I knew I was in denial. There’s no such thing as “knowing” something without knowing that you know it.

Edit: so for instance when we know a relationship is on the verge of ending, we deny it, act like everything is fine, but we know we’re kidding ourselves when we do it.

If I knew God existed but “denied” it, I would be able to introspect that.

 

[BrightShadow]

Before we can understand why God just didn't deliver his message to us in a more efficient way - we need to get answers to many other questions.
We first need to ask why we are even created and why we are sent here to earth where we are not readily interacting with God or his angels? Why this separation and why all the confusions?
After understanding that we will understand if we even deserve any Devine guidance from God or not!

Those who believe in God also believe that God programmed all animals with basic knowledge of survival, taking care of their new born etc. Birds know how to build their nest etc. Bees know how to build their hives etc.. Who taught them? If God did then God could have also easily implanted certain knowledge (in question) straight into our brain if he wished.

Hence OP question .... So, why didn't he?
I personally believe he didn't provide us clearer info in a more efficient way because we don't even deserve any guidance at all. We are the rebellion bunch! We did something and we got expelled from God's kingdom with our memory erased! But we did get a 2nd chance here on earth to prove ourselves and if we play our cards right then maybe we will be taken back.

So, that is why I believe whatever God has provided us - we should embrace it!
I personally believe God has provided us with sufficient information via various prophets and many of those messages are scattered among primarily different monotheistic religions but they are quite corrupted due to some intentional distortion by people in charge of collecting and writing them. Some corruption took place due to cultural influence! A lot also got lost in translations and interpretations.
But I believe we can still salvage enough to get a good picture if we just decide to investigate and look at the right places.
I believe we all have a history (in our soul form) prior to our being sent to this world. I think God must have created billions of souls millions or billions of years ago! Then maybe at some point some of us became rebellious and did something to annoy God. So, instead of destroying us all (billions of rebellious souls) - God decided to give us a second chance and thus created this world where we can come one by one and try to get a second shot at redemption. I think God decided to make the playfield a bit tougher by erasing our memory. So, with very little information - now we have to figure out what God expects from us and then prove ourselves.
Now it is our job to search the doctrines from different religions and piece together information provided to us by many prophets and thus figure out how to attain salvation.
Yes! We are equipped with a basic moral compass but it is not reliable one because our moral compass can be calibrated according to our selfish needs! We can be biased! So, we have to seek proper guidance at an impartial source such as certain religious doctrines of some of the monotheistic religions and sort through the distortions and figure out what makes sense. It is not an easy job. If we succeed and if in the end, we believe in the absolute authority of God and lead a good life then we can probably prove ourselves yet again "worthy" to be taken back.
Remember when you can see God in front of you - following his command is easy. But without concrete evidence - believing is probably more special! Finding the true path (religion) is probably rewarding as well!
This is my personal conclusion!

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Im curious to understand what you are saying here. What do you understand as "lame" here?

Their different interpretations of holy texts has made them lame. They are unequal. They are not straight.


When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. Quran 2:186

Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths: Proverbs 2:15

Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. Ezekiel 33:17


Jesus healed the lame. He put them straight.


O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). Quran 49:13