Why would someone acknowledge the existence of God but refuse to worship Him?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see It is based in sound reasoning and proofs, that all choose not to look at.

Regards Tony

Please share the "sound reasoning and proofs" that can lead to the conclusion that a creator that "we can't know" actually exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've never really quite understood this. First, why do you say you don't like God, let alone love God? Is it that your idea of God is that of a person who has the power to fix stuff, but let's people suffer instead, and therefore you blame God for the suffering of this world?

It is kind of like that but not exactly. It is the idea of a God that created a world in which He knew people would suffer, often and maybe even usually through no fault of their own, and some people suffering so much more than others. I know all if the religious apologetic that is used to dismiss this, that we grow spiritually through suffering, but the problem with that is twofold: (1) Some people just suffer and never grow from it. How is that their fault? (2) We really won't know the benefits that will accrue as the result of our suffering until the afterlife.

It is not that I expect God to fix anything now that it has been created this way, just because God is purportedly omnipotent. I do not believe God is a like Superman who comes to fix things.

Secondly, if you hold that image of God in your mind and heart, why would you choose to be part of any religion that centers upon loving God?

Simply put, because I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. However, I have to question some things He wrote about God being All-Loving, because it doesn't comport with what I see in the world, thus my mind cannot logically accommodate it.

What good or ideal are you pursuing? Is it humanist ideals, of love and supporting others? Would you be happier if your religion just dumped the God idea, and stuck with love and community instead?

I pursue the ideals of the Baha'i Faith, which are similar to humanist ideals.
My religion cannot just dump the God idea because Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.

I have mixed feelings about not having a God belief but my feelings are really a moot point since I believe God exists.

It seems a rather perplexing, and perhaps ill-defined road, seeing that the religion is supposed to be about loving God. It would seem more a path that inflicts guilt for not following what it teaches you to do, namely to love God.

Religion is about much more than loving God. It is also about loving and serving people, serving God and obeying His commandments.

I think that's what all great spiritual teachers realize. It certainly is what Jesus taught, despite all those Christians who can't quite understand what that is and make it about "obeying Christ", in the sense of observing the rules to a T. Hearing those words, and understanding them internally, are two very different things.

I think it is more important to love God than to obey all the laws perfectly, but IF we are a Baha'i and we love God we will want to follow the Laws not just out of obedience but also out of love. Of course, even though this passage is addressing the peoples of the world, the Laws apply only to Baha'is, but it gives you an idea of how serious we are about the Laws.

“O YE peoples of the world! Know assuredly that My commandments are the lamps of My loving providence among My servants, and the keys of My mercy for My creatures. Thus hath it been sent down from the heaven of the Will of your Lord, the Lord of Revelation…

The Tongue of My power hath, from the heaven of My omnipotent glory, addressed to My creation these words:
‘Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty.’ …..

Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!…

Whenever My laws appear like the sun in the heaven of Mine utterance, they must be faithfully obeyed by all, though My decree be such as to cause the heaven of every religion to be cleft asunder. He doth what He pleaseth. He chooseth; and none may question His choice. Whatsoever He, the Well-Beloved, ordaineth, the same is, verily, beloved. To this He Who is the Lord of all creation beareth Me witness.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 119-121

 

[night912]

I wish you well in what you are trying to do.

When I say there is wisdom in submission, it takes knowledge of what is true submission before wisdom can be found.

Wisdom tells me, that we can never have all the Knowledge of God. How can a created being know of its creator?

It is like saying a painting can know the artist. Thus wisdom tells me, that I can pursue knowledge, but to think of myself as a source of knowledge, would be very unwise. Thus my knowledge of God, imparts the Wisdom of Submitting to God's given knowledge.

Regards Tony

Can you know your parents?

You don't even have wisdom yet, your wisdom can't tell you to pursue wisdom.

 

[Piculet]

If I created the universe, I feel that a simple "thanks" from its inhabitants would be more than enough

I assume you say that with the mindset that if you had created the universe, you would have created it for no reason.

If the world were full of signs, why aren't they known to everyone?

Maybe they don't reflect?

 

[icehorse]

I assume you say that with the mindset that if you had created the universe, you would have created it for no reason.

Maybe they don't reflect?

Not at all. I just don't think being worshipped is a healthy goal for any boss.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Please share the "sound reasoning and proofs" that can lead to the conclusion that a creator that "we can't know" actually exists.

I have many times and with you before as well.

You have chosen not to look and I am fine with that.

The Messenger is the proof, after the Messenger it is the Word that remains.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you know your parents?

No, not fully, nor can we fully know any other person, not even our own selves.

We can have knowledge of many aspects of them and us, but we do not have all the answers.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have many times and with you before as well.

You have chosen not to look and I am fine with that.

Sure you have.

 

[night912]

No, not fully, nor can we fully know any other person, not even our own selves.

We can have knowledge of many aspects of them and us, but we do not have all the answers.

Regards Tony

How can you have knowledge when you don't even have wisdom.

I'm just going by reasoning.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If this was a lie and you knew it, why and how would it prevent you from worshiping God?

I was thinking most people don’t know that that belief is a lie.

If you knew better than the learned, wouldn't you be worshipping God better and spreading the superior knowledge you have?

I do, for the past 45 yrs I’ve been going from door-to-door quite a bit, not lately because of the pandemic, preaching the “good news of the Kingdom.” Matthew 24:14

 

[night912]

No, not fully, nor can we fully know any other person, not even our own selves.

Your parents created you, so you are their creation. You didn't have to worship your parents, and yet, you know them. Therefore, the creation does not need to worship the creator in order to know the creator. So there you have it.

PS
I'm just going by your reasoning.

 

[Piculet]

Not at all. I just don't think being worshipped is a healthy goal for any boss.

Then, if you could create a universe, for what reason would you do that? Just curious since you said, "not at all."

Your parents created you,

No. God creates a baby – not the parents.

 

[Piculet]

Why would the creator of the universe want to be worshiped? How are we to know what his commands are, if he doesn't make them clear?

They have been made clear. Are the ten commandments mentioned in the Bible (if you were a Jew or a Christian you would surely believe in them), for example, unclear to you?

Just because someone says they're a messenger from God, it doesn't mean they're telling the truth. As for worship and obeying God's commands, I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of room for interpretation.

Okay, but one should be intellectually honest, no? I am only asking about obeying commands that one acknowledges are from God.

Because I'm not the devotional, blindly obedient type.

What do you mean blindly obedient?
Do you or do you not believe God has commanded you to do and/or not to do something?

I see great potential for harm in worship.

What kind of harm?

You just described religion, such as yours; humans who've appointed themselves to represent and speak for god, just making **** up.

That doesn't answer my question at all.

Could you explain why it sounds like an excuse to you?

Simply because the matter is too important to be pushed aside by something one knows to be trivial. As an example, a person never says, 'I'm too busy,' when it comes to something he really needs/wants to do. He only says so regarding things he doesn't mind doing later rather than right away.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How can you have knowledge when you don't even have wisdom.

I'm just going by reasoning.

Do a net search, google can be a friend.

"To gain wisdom, one has to have knowledge first, and then use conviction to make a good judgment out of that knowledge. ... To gain understanding, one has to have both knowledge and wisdom first, and then put them into action. He has to know, make a choice, and then practice that choice he has made."

or

What comes first knowledge or wisdom?

"There's no chicken-egg scenario here: knowledge always comes first. Wisdom is built upon knowledge. That means you can be both wise and knowledgeable, but you can't be wise without being knowledgeable. And just because you're knowledgeable doesn't mean you're wise.."

Regards Tony

 

[Valjean]

They have been made clear. Are the ten commandments mentioned in the Bible (if you were a Jew or a Christian you would surely believe in them), for example, unclear to you?

I'm not disputing the existence of the text, I'm questioning its status as God's clear word.
If it were so clear, there would be no other alternate religious texts.The world would all believe the same thing, as is the case with evidence-based, scientific knowledge.

But it doesn't -- and for good reason. Unlike science, its claims are unsupported by evidence. In fact, the very existence of a divine lawgiver is unsupported.

Okay, but one should be intellectually honest, no? I am only asking about obeying commands that one acknowledges are from God.

If one were intellectually honest, he would acknowledge that these laws are unsupported, as is their purported author.

Belief is not intellectually based, but faith based. Faith is unsupported belief.

What do you mean blindly obedient?

Blind obedience is obedience to something unsupported by evidence; something that, to be intellectually honest, is probably man-made.

 

[crossfire]

What do you mean blindly obedient?
Do you or do you not believe God has commanded you to do and/or not to do something?

What kind of harm?

My answers to both of these questions can be found in these posts:

Well, picture yourself as an omnipotent, eternal being.

Now picture yourself as an omnipotent, eternal being with millions of voices in your head singing your praises and asking for a boon. Are these voices real, or they just products of your all-powerful mind? (delusions)

How long could you maintain your sanity in such a state?

Therapist to patient:
"Do the voices tell you to harm others?"
"Yes."
"Would you act on the voices?"
"Maybe to get them to shut up!"

The voice-in-the-head scenario can go both ways--people believing the voices to be commandments from god, or god hearing prayers. This is not exactly what one would call sound mental health.

 

[Quintessence]

Simply because the matter is too important to be pushed aside by something one knows to be trivial. As an example, a person never says, 'I'm too busy,' when it comes to something he really needs/wants to do. He only says so regarding things he doesn't mind doing later rather than right away.

To many people, developing a relationship with your god is something they know to be trivial. They already have deeply important relationships in their lives that are not trivial to them. It's not making an excuse to recognize one already has committed relationships and politely decline starting another. Don't monotheists generally value fidelity? It sounds like you are asking for other people to be unfaithful to the things they love. That's kind of gross, to be honest. Please respect other people's relationships.

 

[icehorse]

Then, if you could create a universe, for what reason would you do that? Just curious since you said, "not at all."

Joy of life

 

[Link]

He has sent many messengers and created a world filled with signs for people to reflect. Why would someone acknowledge His existence, but refuse to worship Him and to obey the commands He has told people to obey (or, the commands people think he has made known)?

Following reasons:

1] Miracles are not present in the moment and people unaware of God's explanation as to why. (this is not an easy answer)
2] We live in a imperfect world full of evil and trials - the explanation of God why we are in fallen state world people are also unaware of.
3] The mixing of falsehood with truth by people entrusted God's command and revelations, have made people not want to study the true religion on basis that it appears false by what it's so called representatives teach about it or what the people believe about it.
4] The Jinn of the falsehood type entice to the world and easy quick rewards, while God's sword and guide and God's Angels sustenance is harder to carry, preserve in and embrace having the glory that is harder to embrace then the beauty enticed by the devils.
5] Belief in hell has pages and pages justifying it and building a case for it, people are unaware of the reasons, and when unaware, hell seems too harsh and believers of it blood thirsty cruel people.
6]Because God's handhold is the only guidance and means to him, the dark one has created all sorts of divergence from it, and oppressed the truth and it's people, and people aside from being unaware are uninterested in life of hardship they will have to endure if they become aware of the truth.
7]Because of mental health and propaganda, if Mohammad (s) and his family (a) connected people in the unseen, if the leader of our time does open a gateway to heaven and connects to the stars Mohammad (s) and his family, people will think they are going crazy or if not, think it's demons, and people are not even aware of this type of gateways and need of that type of ascension anymore.
8]The western propaganda has made sound arguments like the ontological argument and other good arguments appear weak when they are not.
9]The Quran was playfully approached, mistranslated, and we attributed God what we don't know, as a result, people are unattracted to the path it calls to.
10]So many divisions, it's really like going from misguidance to ultra confusion misguidance when coming to Islam, doesn't even seem worth the effort it anymore.

 

[Piculet]

Joy of life

Would you allow suffering?