Why?

[DakotaGypsy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/international/middleeast/26sectarian.html

March 26, 2006
Ancient Rift Brings Fear on Streets of Baghdad
By JEFFREY GETTLEMAN
BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 25 — The difference between Shiites and Sunnis is sometimes explained simply as a disagreement over who should have become the leader of the Muslim community after the Prophet Muhammad died nearly 1,400 years ago.

But in Iraq, the divide goes beyond that, partly because of geography and partly because of history. With sectarian tensions rising, Iraqis are paying more attention to the little things that signal whether someone is Shiite or Sunni. None of the indicators are foolproof. But a name, an accent and even the color of a head scarf can provide clues.

Complicating all of this is the reality that many Iraqis have intermarried and that for much of Iraq's history, the two communities have coexisted peacefully. Very rarely has sectarian identity been a life or death matter, the way it is now on some of Baghdad's streets.

Shiites split off from Sunnis after the Prophet Muhammad died in the seventh century. That created a crisis over who would succeed him as leader of the Muslim community. One group of Muslims chose Muhammad's friend, Abu Bakr. They would become the Sunnis, a vast majority of the world's Muslims.

A smaller group believed the rightful successor was Ali, the prophet's son-in-law and cousin. They would become the Shiites, who today are concentrated in India, Pakistan and Persian Gulf countries. Abu Bakr won out, though after he died Ali eventually became caliph. He was assassinated, and the Muslim community began to splinter.

Ali's son Hussein led a rebellion but he, too, was cut down, in a battle in Karbala, Iraq. Hussein's death was the beginning of Shiism and it started a culture of martyrdom, evident each year during a festival in Karbala when Shiites whip and cut themselves to symbolize Hussein's pain.

Over the years, the rivalry between the partisans of Ali and those who supported Abu Bakr evolved into two schools of theology. For example, when it comes time to pray, Shiites believe a person's arms should be straight; most Sunnis say they should be bent. Shiites allow temporary marriage; Sunnis say it is forbidden. In some cases, Shiite inheritance law is more generous to women than is Sunni inheritance law.
Shiites follow ayatollahs, or supreme jurists, who some believe have divine powers. Sunni Islam is more decentralized among local imams.

Southern Iraq is essentially the center of Shiite Islam, with holy shrines in Karbala, Kufa and Najaf. The Sunni Arabs are concentrated in the west, especially in Anbar Province, the heartland of Iraqi tribal culture. In Baghdad and eastern cities like Baquba, the populations are mixed, while in the north, Sunni Kurds predominate.

In Iraq, tribal identity is also important, and many people use tribal names as last names. Because certain tribes are rooted in certain areas, a last name like Saidi, Maliki or Kinani may be typically Shiite, while names like Zobi, Tikriti and Hamdani are typically Sunni.

Certain first names may also reveal sect: Omar and Othman are Sunni names; Haidar and Karrar are Shiite ones.

Dress, too, can be a sign, but again not because it has religious significance. In western Iraq, the favored headdress is white and red; in the south it is white and black.

Historians say Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq have had periods of peace and conflict. Saddam Hussein exacerbated the rivalry, most notably after 1991, when Shiites in the south revolted and he used predominantly Sunni tribes to crush them.
Nearly 60 percent of Iraq's population of some 25 million are Shiite, with Sunni Arabs and Sunni Kurds making up roughly 40 percent.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Why do I hate religion?

I've just told you why.

I must also remind you that under the non-theocratic rule of Saddam Hussein the Sunnis and Shi'ites lived together in a semblance of peace.

Which is precisly why my nation, the United States of America was founded under a constitution which forbade a theocratic state.

Which is why I am frightened because of the theocratic presidency of George Walker Bush.

He and his equally stupid administration people have forgotten the horrors of the religious wars in horrifically theocratic Old Europe.

Damnation to all religions! I am sick of the horrors and divisiveness bestowed upon humanity by religion!

 

[Sunstone]

You seem to contend that religion is the creator of divisiveness. But take any society in which there is severely limited or almost no opportunity for the average person to "get ahead" in life, and you will find that society to be rift with divisiveness. If it doesn't divide along religious lines, it will divide along ethnic or party lines. The old Soviet Union, for instance, was almost constantly at war with itself, killing millions of people over the years of its existence. Today, there are numerous murderous wars on the world's most impoverished continent: Africa. When people have little or no hope of getting ahead by fair means in an expanding economy, they turn to getting ahead by stealing wealth from their fellows.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Africa is the fruit of religiously Christian Europe which pirated its wealth and resources. Not to mention religiously Christian America which profited from the stolen labors of the peoples stolen away from their homes in Africa.

Not to mention how religiously Islamic Arabs are enriched by the still ongoing slave trade in Africa and the constant warfare they inflict upon the natives tribes of Africa.

Damnation to all religion!

 

[PureX]

Just as it's the LOVE of money that is the great sin, and not the money itself, it's the idolization of religion that inspires the violent intolerance and not the religions, themselves.

But this matters little to those who are being tortured and killed for the sake of money OR religion.

 

[c0da]

Why do I hate religion?

I've just told you why.

Right, so you hate religion because some crazy idiots like killing each other?

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Crazy idiocy seems to be a symptom of religion.

 

[Mike182]

Crazy idiocy seems to be a symptom of religion.

does your little outrage not fall under the category of "crazy idiocy" as you blame the concept of religion for human transgressions?

 

[Buttercup]

Crazy idiocy seems to be a symptom of religion.

Funny, I guess I would be considered religious. Have been most of my life. Last time I checked I scored 'zero' on the fanat-o-matic meter!

 

[Popeyesays]

Why do I hate religion?

I've just told you why.

I must also remind you that under the non-theocratic rule of Saddam Hussein the Sunnis and Shi'ites lived together in a semblance of peace.

It was the same kind of peace that allowed white mobs to lynch black on a whim. The kind of peace where one population hs no voice in government.

The same treatment was offered to Kurds.

People rounded up in truckloads tortured to death and buried secretly in unmarked graves.

What kind of peace is that?

Please note I have more than misgivings about the continued effort in Iraq, but I recognize that there was no peace within that country while the Baathists ruled.

Why not pick on Myanmar or Cambodia - they had the same kind of peace Iraq had.

Scott

 

[Buttercup]

Damnation to all religions! I am sick of the horrors and divisiveness bestowed upon humanity by religion!

DakotaGypsy,

Are you of the opinion that if there were zero religions on earth that it would be a peaceful place?

I think that if the entire world were atheist.....we would still have violence. I don't think things would change much at all in fact. Or they would be worse.

 

[Judgement Day]

DakotaGypsy,

Are you of the opinion that if there were zero religions on earth that it would be a peaceful place?

I think that if the entire world were atheist.....we would still have violence. I don't think things would change much at all in fact. Or they would be worse.

Exactly...violence has already been part of the human nature. Consider our past and get back to history...we see WW1 and WW2, not to mention all other wars and violent actions.

 

[c0da]

Crazy idiocy seems to be a symptom of religion.

Crazy idiots will be crazy idiots. Religion does not cause this crazy idiocy, it is just where these people wrongly choose to be crazy idiots.

It's like in politics. The majority of politicians are nice guys, but you get a few crazy idiots who act like crazy idiots within the political system.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

If there were no religion, violence would not totally cease.

But, they would no longer have the excuse of religion to be violent. No longer would there be shouts of "Infidel!" and mob actions.

 

[Judgement Day]

If there were no religion, violence would not totally cease.

But, they would no longer have the excuse of religion to be violent. No longer would there be shouts of "Infidel!" and mob actions.

So an excuse of politics, world domination, and self-interest is a good excuse? What is your point??? To find a good excuse to commit violence? Well let me tell you what...There is no good excuse for violence. Quote me a religion that teaches to shout and kill infidels..if you can find one that is, and I'm more than just confident that that is only your misconception upon a particular religion.

 

[Fluffy]

Africa is the fruit of religiously Christian Europe which pirated its wealth and resources. Not to mention religiously Christian America which profited from the stolen labors of the peoples stolen away from their homes in Africa.

Not to mention how religiously Islamic Arabs are enriched by the still ongoing slave trade in Africa and the constant warfare they inflict upon the natives tribes of Africa.

Damnation to all religion!

Me and my religion are inseperable. I want nothing other than to relieve the suffering of others and I am fully prepared to make what I consider to be large sacrifices in order to do so. There are many aspects about me which I do not like but this part is one that I do and it is fully entertwined with my religion.

Religion is here to stay. I feel it is better to encourage it away from the evil and towards the good rather than repress or hate it which will inevitably produce ugly results.

 

[jewscout]

Africa is the fruit of religiously Christian Europe which pirated its wealth and resources. Not to mention religiously Christian America which profited from the stolen labors of the peoples stolen away from their homes in Africa.

Damnation to all religion!

what absolute silliness...
the african slave trade and the subsequent slicing up of the African continent had more to do w/ political power and economic power and little to do w/ religion
in fact many historians would argue that it was the religious groups in Britian and the US which led the way in the abolitionist movement

if you want to be upset at something over this be upset and humanity as a whole...
religion or no religion we would find reasons to hate, suppress and murder one another.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Thinking of the particular nations of the world in which the word "Infidel!" occurs quite frequently, with subsequent slaughter based on religious differences. I'll just think about them, I won't list them, but you all know what nations I'm talking about.

 

[jewscout]

i've said it before and i'll say it again.....




Stalin didn't need religion to persecute, suppress and murder millions of people.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Stalin was not brought up in an Atheist household, however, and he may have been abused as a child.

Stalin even wanted to be a priest at one point in his life.