Will Biden Cancel Student Debt?

[esmith]

We all benefit from an educated populace and we should all chip in.

Depends on what they are educated in doesn't it.
The 20 Most Useless University Degrees

 

[Suave]

If students who borrow all get their loans forgiven,
then they're not really loans. And why should
anyone take out loans with intent to repay, eh?
College is often just not so useful that it's worth
paying more taxes so people get free degrees
in medieval art history, victimization studies,
sports communication, & women's studies.

Ideally there should have already been tuition free college or tuition free vocational training

I'm only saying that it's not worth taxpayer funding.
It can be positive for the student, but let them pay
for it.

Those are useful endeavors, but this doesn't justify
making college free for all students in all fields.

FYI, I'm not arguing against the usefulness of college.

If Norway, Finland, Germany and France have prospered from tuition free college, along with students free of having to personally finance their higher learning then I suppose America could just as well benefit by having tuition free higher education costs spread out among all taxpayers instead of higher education being funded by students having to individually suffer the financial burden of paying a massive debt.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Depends on what they are educated in doesn't it.
The 20 Most Useless University Degrees

That's rather uninformative. Like art history. That one is common for tattoo artists. Some colleges, like Ball State, are known for their drama departments that have pumped out a lists of alumni that are common household names. Music degrees are more common for those in the technical and production side of music. And some degrees, like liberal arts or general studies, are steps along the way for bigger things like being a lawyer (law schools like candidates with a background in philosophy as well).

 

[Watchmen]

That's rather uninformative. Like art history. That one is common for tattoo artists. Some colleges, like Ball State, are known for their drama departments that have pumped out a lists of alumni that are common household names. Music degrees are more common for those in the technical and production side of music. And some degrees, like liberal arts or general studies, are steps along the way for bigger things like being a lawyer (law schools like candidates with a background in philosophy as well).

You’re stating the exception; not the rule.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You’re stating the exception; not the rule.

No, I'm stating there's more to it than that. Like, no, musicians don't use music degrees but audio engineers do.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Depends on what they are educated in doesn't it.
The 20 Most Useless University Degrees

That's rather uninformative. Like art history. That one is common for tattoo artists. Some colleges, like Ball State, are known for their drama departments that have pumped out a lists of alumni that are common household names. Music degrees are more common for those in the technical and production side of music. And some degrees, like liberal arts or general studies, are steps along the way for bigger things like being a lawyer (law schools like candidates with a background in philosophy as well).

I was reading the list thinking, "These may generally not be lucrative degrees, but that's not the only metric for being 'useless.'"

... until I found that the list included computer science. That's one of the most profitable and in-demand degrees one could possibly opt for. These are lists of the professions that make the most money:

25 Highest Paid Occupations in the U.S.

The 10 Most Lucrative College Majors (Plus Salary Info)

The Most Valuable College Majors For 2021 | Bankrate

And this is a list of the fastest-growing jobs and careers:

The 30 Fastest-Growing Jobs And Careers For The Next 10 Years

Every single one lists computer science or a computer-related career/job. It's possible to get into the field without a college degree, but it absolutely helps to have one in most cases. Some jobs in certain branches of computer science, such as data science, sometimes require a master's degree as well, which means a college degree is a must.

That list seems to have been written by someone who hasn't done any research beyond a precursory glimpse into tech-related fields. The market isn't even close to saturation; it's actually growing in demand by the year.

As the icing on the cake, these are lists of skilled occupations and ones currently in shortage in the U.K. and Australia. Among the most sought-after professions are--you guessed it!--ones related to computer science and computer engineering:

Skilled Worker visa: shortage occupations

Priority Migration Skilled Occupation List

Whoever included computer science on that list of "useless degrees" is absolutely clueless.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

No, I'm stating there's more to it than that. Like, no, musicians don't use music degrees but audio engineers do.

@esmith @Watchmen
In addition to the above, this list overemphasized natural talent and relying on just putting together your own portfolio. Successful artists don't have natural talent (beyond some linear non-spacial reasoning tendencies), they have an obsession with practice. But you can practice in ways that reinforce bad habits and are less efficient. And that's what art school really helps with, fundamentals and efficiency. It would be a boon for any artist and their trade. The only reason not to do it is the money. Which sounds like a great reason for tuition free school. More better trained artists for the economy.

Also these lists are generally being written by severely out of touch genx or boomers which have no idea how big and varied commercial arts careers are. Again, video games alone, which employ thousands of concept artists, studio artists, animators, writers, musicians, folie artists, voice and motion capture actors etc, is a hundred billion dollar industry alone. Neverminding how much bigger movie studio powerhouses like Disney/Marvel employ the arts. The arts have never been such a solid career path as they are now.

 

[Debater Slayer]

@esmith @Watchmen
In addition to the above, this list overemphasized natural talent and relying on just putting together your own portfolio. Successful artists don't have natural talent (beyond some linear non-spacial reasoning tendencies), they have an obsession with practice. But you can practice in ways that reinforce bad habits and are less efficient. And that's what art school really helps with, fundamentals and efficiency. It would be a boon for any artist and their trade. The only reason not to do it is the money. Which sounds like a great reason for tuition free school. More better trained artists for the economy.

Also these lists are generally being written by severely out of touch genx or boomers which have no idea how big and varied commercial arts careers are. Again, video games alone, which employ thousands of concept artists, studio artists, animators, writers, musicians, folie artists, voice and motion capture actors etc, is a hundred billion dollar industry alone. Neverminding how much bigger movie studio powerhouses like Disney/Marvel employ the arts. The arts have never been such a solid career path as they are now.

Listing computer science there is enough of a reason on its own to question the credibility of the whole thing. That's seriously one of the most factually incorrect takes I've read about the job market in a long time.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Listing computer science there is enough of a reason on its own to question the credibility of the whole thing. That's seriously one of the most factually incorrect takes I've read about the job market in a long time.

Yeah that's pretty boneheaded. I focused on the parts about the arts just from experience. Like computer sciences, it's undergone it's own (forgive the pun) Renaissance and massive increase of job options due to a massive increase of demand.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Whoever included computer science on that list of "useless degrees" is absolutely clueless.

Yup. It also mentions at least a couple "stepping stone" degrees, where someone needs it for a job or they play on going further. Then suddenly philosophy and liberal arts aren't as bad as they seem at first, because those are future teachers, lawyers, amd those anthropologists and archeologists it claims "you only know fictional ones." But I've known at least a few. And if art history doesn't draw lucrative pay typically so what? Lots of people use it for a variety of things, from graphic design to animation and even tattooing. And it's what they do, a career has been made of what they love, good for them. In the end anyways, they still contribute more to society than those like hedge fund managers.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

When I went to college in the UK in the fifties it was free. people could also get a living grant. which was also free. however only some 5% of the population were sufficiently qualified when leaving school to take advantage of it. Today a majority of the young population go to College or University. Only a portion of which will ever pay off their Education loans. And a very large number not even pass the pay threshold to even to start paying.

The wealth of a country in modern times depends on the availability of well educated an skilled people.
It is reasonable to move the cost of education on to general taxation. it is in the interest of everyone that they take advantage of education and high level training. They will then pay for it for their entire life as part of their taxation, in proportion to their income.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ideally there should have already been tuition free college or tuition free vocational training

If Norway, Finland, Germany and France have prospered from tuition free college, along with students free of having to personally finance their higher learning then I suppose America could just as well benefit by having tuition free higher education costs spread out among all taxpayers instead of higher education being funded by students having to individually suffer the financial burden of paying a massive debt.

No sources.
No downsides listed.
Just a claim that free college is all rainbows & unicorns.

Are there no budget problems at schools financed solely
by taxpayers? And what of living costs while still in school?
(Those were my highest expenses, not tuition.) Loans would
still be needed....but who would lend if the wouldn't be repaid?

 

[Suave]

No sources.
No downsides listed.
Just a claim that free college is all rainbows & unicorns.

Are there no budget problems at schools financed solely
by taxpayers? And what of living costs while still in school?
(Those were my highest expenses, not tuition.) Loans would
still be needed....but who would lend if the wouldn't be repaid?

The average college graduate's annual income is $78,000 compared to $45,000 for someone with only a high school education,

Reference: Despite Rising Costs, College Is Still a Good Investment - Liberty Street Economics (newyorkfed.org)

Somebody earning $78k/year on average pays $3,400 per year more in federal taxes than somebody earning $40k/year.

Free Income Tax Calculator - Estimate Your Taxes - SmartAsset

"According to the College Board’s annual “Trends in College Pricing ” report, the average cost of attending a four year college as an in-state student at a public university during the 2020-2021 school year was $10,560, which multiplied over 4 years and factoring 5 percent yearly increases amounts to approximately $45,000 total tuition cost on average, $45,000/$3,400 year means a typical college education would pay off for its tuition costs with higher tax revenues generated by somebody being college educated over the course of just 15 years.

 

[Revoltingest]

The average college graduate's annual income is $78,000 compared to $45,000 for someone with only a high school education,

Reference: Despite Rising Costs, College Is Still a Good Investment - Liberty Street Economics (newyorkfed.org)

Somebody earning $78k/year on average pays $3,400 per year more in federal taxes than somebody earning $40k/year.

Free Income Tax Calculator - Estimate Your Taxes - SmartAsset

"According to the College Board’s annual “Trends in College Pricing ” report, the average cost of attending a four year college as an in-state student at a public university during the 2020-2021 school year was $10,560, which multiplied over 4 years and factoring 5 percent yearly increases amounts to approximately $45,000 total tuition cost on average, $45,000/$3,400 year means a typical college education would pay off for its tuition costs with higher tax revenues generated by somebody being college educated over the course of just 15 years.

There's a correlation & causation issue here....
The kind of person who'd get a degree is likely to
also be the kind to strive to earn more. Merely
going to college doesn't guarantee higher pay.
Education in a trade, eg, medicine, engineering
offer more income potential. But the guy who
worked for me doing apartment maintence
didn't earn more just cuz he had a PhD in music.

 

[Suave]

There's a correlation & causation issue here....
The kind of person who'd get a degree is likely to
also be the kind to strive to earn more. Merely
going to college doesn't guarantee higher pay.
Education in a trade, eg, medicine, engineering
offer more income potential. But the guy who
worked for me doing apartment maintence
didn't earn more just cuz he had a PhD in music.

Of course, I would like tax payer funded trade school tuition as well as tuition free college. ...

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course, I would like tax payer funded trade school tuition as well as tuition free college. ...

Spending tax money for fields of low value
makes no sense. Resources aren't unlimited,
so spending must be prioritized.

 

[Suave]

Spending tax money for fields of low value
makes no sense. Resources aren't unlimited,
so spending must be prioritized.

Please let us consider the return on investment value of public spending, how much more would a vocationally trained professional earn and be mandated to pay in taxes compared to somebody without any vocational sills?

 

[Revoltingest]

Please let us consider the return on investment value of public spending, how much more would a vocationally trained professional earn and be mandated to pay in taxes compared to somebody without any vocational sills?

Sure.
Could be worthwhile.

 

[esmith]

Please let us consider the return on investment value of public spending, how much more would a vocationally trained professional earn and be mandated to pay in taxes compared to somebody without any vocational sills?

I have a great idea that can benifit the country and the person.
Join the military, after 4 to 6 years get out and use the GI bill to pay for your education.
Heck who knows, they might even learn a trade while in.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The same line of reasoning can be applied to almost any tax-funded endeavor, in my opinion. Should taxpayer money be used to pay the salary of an incompetent cop? What about unsustainable power plants or unnecessary military operations?

If you accept that humans will manage state finances, you also implicitly accept--or at least logically should do so--that the implementation of policies won't be perfect. A good government just tries to get as close to an ideal system as possible.

Well, yeah! Any employee incompetent to do the job they are paid to do should be terminated -- it will be better for the employer and the employee -- who will then have at least some motivation to find the employment (s)he IS good at.

And I never thought that governments, which are run by people of necessity, since we have't got aliens or angels to do it for us, could be perfect.