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Will Iran attack Israel ?
- Thread starter Reverend Rick
- Start date
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
What about the zionist scum...
be careful, as im sure you already know, any, ANY criticism of Israel, be they valid or not, is tantamount to antisemitism.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Palestinians have a tendency to fabricate Israeli atrocities which successfully incites the people's hatred of Israel, and willingness to blow themselves up on Israeli buses and in pizza shops.
One of the more famous examples of fabricated atrocities is the case of Muhammed al-Dura. Palestinian gunmen fired at a man and his son, and the scene was recorded and reported to make it appear as if Israelis shot and killed al-Dura. Personally, I'm not convinced he's even dead. But many across the world fell for it, and Palestinians have used it as the model example of Israeli brutality and injustice.
They commit terrorism, and the world lets them get away with it because they spin it as resistance against a brutal occupier... but most of the brutality is in their own minds because they're being lied to by their own leaders and media. Meanwhile, when Israel defends itself after years of restraint, it gets accused of aggression because the guys who fire rockets into Israel do so surrounded by civilians.
I don't pretend as if Israel is blameless, and I don't doubt for a moment that some Israelis have done some inexcusable things.
But to suggest that Israelis and Palestinians are equally responsible for the conflict is absurd.
Bismillah
Submit
You attribute the IDF's crimes against Palestinians as fibs? How about you pick something less controversial as your main example? Your conspiracy is akin to the 9/11 theorists in my book. I think you see what you want to see
They are the occupier, this is acknowledged.
Aside from the brutality of the masses of civilians killed right?
So the only logical conclusion would be that you believe that Israel is the main culprit then...
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
There's tremendous video evidence that Palestinians film fake instances of injury and death and blame it on Israel.
Actually, the fact that the Muhammad al-Dura incident was a hoax is pretty solid. Believing that Israelis killed Muhammad al-Dura is akin to the 9/11 theorists in my book.
Land was purchased from Arabs by Jews for outrageously high prices, and a distinct effort was made to NOT displace any Arabs. The Arab war to annihilate Israel in 48 caused a great many Arabs to flee, getting out of the way for 7 Arab nations to destroy Israel... some fled because of tales of Israeli massacres... fabricated by Arabs.
As attempts to annihilate Israel persisted, Israel defended itself, occasionally taking abandoned and/or conquered land... the right of a nation successfully defending itself from agression.
Hamas terrorists fire rockets into Israel from the rooftops of schools. Israel sends warnings so that civilians can get to safety... text messages, phone calls, radio messages, leaflets, (all in Arabic)... even non exploding noisemakers, all as a warning to innocent people to get to safety.
Israel protects both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. Hamas targets both Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
Quite the opposite. Since the British Mandate, Jews have been perfectly willing to live peacefully side by side with the Arabs in the region... the declaration of establishment of the state of Israel talks of full rights and citizenship for Arab Israelis, and the desire to improve the middle east by living peacefully with its Arab neighbors.... and for the past 60 years, Israel has been more than willing to live side by side with an independent sovereign state of Palestine.
Palestinians, on the other hand, never sought peace with the Jews. All they sought was the annihilation of Israel. The PLO wasn't even started for the sake of establishing a state of Palestine. It was started to kill Jews... and to this day every Palestinian political charter is dedicated to violence and annihilation of Israel.
The core of all the strife between Palestinians and Israelis is the Arab refusal to accept the existence of the Jewish State of Israel.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Regarding al-Dura... I can find the video if you want me to... but for now, here's a link:
CAMERA: BACKGROUNDER: Mohammed Al Dura
Describing the facts of the incident, which turn out to be that from where the Israelis were positioned,it was impossible for any Israeli gunfire to hit either Muhammad or his father. It was a staged incident, and in fact Palestinian gunmen were firing at al-Dura.
Please... read the link.
CAMERA: BACKGROUNDER: Mohammed Al Dura
Describing the facts of the incident, which turn out to be that from where the Israelis were positioned,it was impossible for any Israeli gunfire to hit either Muhammad or his father. It was a staged incident, and in fact Palestinian gunmen were firing at al-Dura.
Please... read the link.
Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Wat do people mean by Jewish land or Islamic state------Wat has religion to do these things?
A combined Israel-Palestine should been formed without any divide in religions.I wonder how Britishers at that time took active interest in colonizing new lands but when they bowed out,they usually leave without taking any decisions.
A combined Israel-Palestine should been formed without any divide in religions.I wonder how Britishers at that time took active interest in colonizing new lands but when they bowed out,they usually leave without taking any decisions.
Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
U are contradicting..If arabs live peacefully with Jews, then how it would be Jewish State?
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
There are quite a few nations that have state religions that live quite peacefully with citizens of other faiths... and oddly enough, the Jewish state of Israel wouldn't list Judaism as an official "state religion".
For example. India might be recognized as a Hindu nation... though India does not have an official state religion.
Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Even though Israel was bought, Palestine people can live in Israel and get a chance live in a developed country.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
People of all faiths and cultural backgrounds are welcome to be Israeli citizens with full and equal rights.
Palestinians could have had a state of their own all along, but they refused. For them it's an all or nothing proposition... and that means annihilating Israel before declaring themselves a state.
Bismillah
Submit
There's large numbers of evidence and counter evidence regarding the issue. Taken from both our perspectives, it would do little to change the mindset of the other. Who directly murdered who is a question that most likely will never be answered. However, the fact that the IDF fired first into the crowd of protesters places them as responsible for indirectly killing the boy.
Like how Israel takes vast chunks of Gaza's fertile land and peppers it with military instalations? Causing food shortages and robbing farmers of their homes and shooting them on sight if they return? Or when Israel takes Arab land in East Jerusalem?
You mean how Israel told the citizens of Gaza to escape the blockaded city? Where were these people supposed to go? Israel's tactic of overcompensation led to the deaths of scores of innocents. Was this their intention? What about the use of phosphorous in their imprecise artillery shells, something that spells out death in metropolitan areas. How about the fact that the majority of civilians killed were not found to be caught in the crossfire between Palestinian militants and IDF forces nor were they shielding militants according to Amnesty International? I condemn the shock and awe tactics Israel used in operation Cast Lead.
Palestine condemned the waves of illegal Jewish immigrants that spilled into their homeland. The response was a war against the Jewish settlers. The Jewish settler's response was to go on the offensive and seize Arab land. The Palestenian was displaced and left homeless after the fighting. Each action was a response to the action of the other, a tit for tat game. I just find Israel's responses to be heavy handed.
Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Wat would have happened if Muslims from Malaysia came to Palestine instead of jews.Would this problem remained?
And more questions:Why cant jews remained where they were?They should have protected lands long back.why cant they make jewish state near say california in US.
And more questions:Why cant jews remained where they were?They should have protected lands long back.why cant they make jewish state near say california in US.
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Bismillah
Submit
Why on Earth would Muslims from Malaysia come to displace Palestenians? If the hypothetical did occur armed conflict I would expect.
These immigration waves occurred around the time of a very anti-Jew Europe and U.S. When the Zionists pledged to create an Israel, many flocked to create a Jewish homeland.
MissAlice
Well-Known Member
And is it any wonder why there's been a long and violent history of bloodshed between the Jews and the Muslims?
You just can't accept anyone who is of a different religion or race than you. So much for "the chosen people" or the concept of an elite people that make a habit of killing anyone and everyone who isn't like themselves.....
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
I'm not convinced the boy is even dead.
I've seen videos of Palestinians carrying funeral pyres of supposedly dead people.... and those people get up and start walking around. Probably didn't mean for that part to be caught on camera.
Israelis took a desert and turned it into a garden... in the process providing food, resources, and jobs for Palestinians in Gaza. American Jews specifically bought and donated the greenhouses in Gaza to the Palestinians after the Israeli withdrawal... and what happened? The Palestinians proceeded to destroy them. They took a garden and turned it into a desert.
I blame Hamas for food shortages.
As for "taking land in East Jerusalem"... remember, the West Bank is not sovereign territory. It's "disputed" territory. Israelis have legally purchased land in East Jerusalem, and Palestinians have illegally built houses there.
Had they at least evacuated the particular building that was about to be hit, they could have saved themselves. Pamphlets, telephone calls, text messages, radio messages, noise makers dropped on the roof... there were so many measures given to minimize civilian casualties. What other country on earth does such a thing? That's not a rhetorical question. I want to know... What other country on earth does so much to warn civilians of impending destruction so that they might flee to safety?
Overcompensation was not a tactic. It was an unfortunate side effect of war. Hamas took extraordinary steps to put Palestinian civilians in harm's way. Israel took extraordinary steps to put Palestinian civilians out of harm's way.
But the alternative to not hitting rocket launch sites and weapons storage facilities was to let Hamas rain thousands of rockets on cities like Sderot, Ashdod, Ashkelon, etc... and that would be unacceptable.
Not at all. Again... Hamas goes out of its way to endanger civilians on both sides. Israel goes out of its way to protect civilians on both sides. The fact that Israel has more powerful weapons and Hamas puts its civilians in harm's way accounts for the unfortunate and tragic loss of civilian life.... but again... the alternative of letting Hamas fire rockets at Israel is unacceptable.
Q: Did the IDF use munitions containing white phosphorous and flechettes? A: The IDF uses only weapons and munitions defined as legal under international law and authorized as such by the relevant IDF authorities, including MAG officers. All weapons and munitions are employed in accordance with the general rules of International Humanitarian Law, such as distinction and proportionality
During the Gaza operation, IDF forces used munitions containing white phosphorous, which is in common use by militaries worldwide. The IDF used two different types of munitions containing white phosphorous - exploding munitions and smoke projectiles. A small number of exploding munitions containing white phosphorous were used by the IDF during the operation, as mortar shells fired by ground forces and as rounds from naval vessels. These munitions were fired only at open unpopulated areas and were used only for marking and signaling. No exploding munitions containing white phosphorous were used in built-up areas of the Gaza Strip or for anti-personnel purposes.
In the course of the ground maneuver, the IDF also used smoke screening projectiles containing felt wedges dipped in white phosphorous. These shells contained relatively small amounts of white phosphorous and were used exclusively to create smoke screens for military requirements, such as camouflaging armored forces from anti-tank squads deployed by Hamas in Gaza's urban areas. The smoke projectiles may, on occasion, produce incidental incendiary effects, but this does not make them incendiary weapons for purposes of international law.
FAQ: The Operation in Gaza - Factual and Legal Aspects
Not only do I dispute this fact, I maintain that Hamas exaggerates the number of civilian dead to draw international outrage, despite reality, in accordance with their tendency to fabricate the degree, or even whole incidents, of Palestinian suffering and death.
At no time did Israel intentionally inflict harm on the civilian population of Gaza. Civilian casualties are a tragic, unfortunate, and regrettable reality of war. But when Israel goes out of its way to not only send warnings, but guides missiles post deployment in order to avoid civilian casualties. Meanwhile, Hamas fires rockets from the rooftops of schools, and plants explosives in schools, gas stations, between homes in crowded residential areas, etc for the express purpose of maximizing Palestinian civilian casualties.
If you want to condemn anyone, condemn Hamas for provoking an Israeli response.
The establishment of the State of Israel in 48 was legal and legitimate... and nations like Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq took it upon themselves to destroy this newly established state... and the leaders of those nations urged Palestinians to leave so they wouldn't be caught in the crossfire when they annihilated Israel.
No. The Jews seized Arab land after going on the defensive and winning.
If there was no war against Israel in 48, there wouldn't be any Palestinian refugees.
That's because Palestinians really sell their propaganda to make Israel appear to be big, bad, and brutal. And unfortunately, there are more people in this world ready to buy it, rather than look at reality.
I find Israel's responses to be quite restrained... more than any other nation in the world would be under similar circumstances.
Bismillah
Submit
So what? You realize Palestinians stage mock protests featuring fake deaths to protest the actual murder of civilians? Involving them falling down, fainting etc. etc. Not being ripped apart by bullets in the arms of their loved ones.
Israel took 30% of Gaza's fertile land and turned it into a wasteland, killing the farmers trying to tend their crops. A basket of pomegranates makes up for it?
Hmm the Israeli withdrawal yes. You know what happened hours before the withdrawal? The IDF upped its bombardment, sent troops further into Gaza, and created thousands more displaced people. And then later in the day declared a ceasefire. A coup de grace? This sick action closely parallels the similar acts the IDF committed in Lebanon in '06
I blame Israel not only for food shortages, but for every kind of shortage the resulted from the war. Specifically because the IDF chose to bomb government buildings, courts, schools, hospitals, ambulances, mosques, and electricity power plants. All after Israel ran out of Hamas targets. Gaza lost 80% of Agricultural infrastructure and crops.
Wrong. The West Bank is occupied territory. It is part of the future Palestine nation and Israeli settlements are trying to grab as much land as possible before negotiations are finished. Or perhaps these settlements are to stave off the negotiations, to deny Palestine the right to exist. The Israelis uproot Arab citizens and replace their houses with apartment buildings for Jews. In Jerusalem. Unbelievable.
Yes and then Israeli bombs hit the building three blocks down. What sane person wouldn't evacuate? Obviously the victims of these attacks were those least expecting it. But then again, use of weapons such as cluster grenades will result in indiscriminate killing.
Israeli Colonel Siboni "The goal instead was to use "disproportionate force," thereby "inflicting damage and meting out punishment to an extent that will demand long and expensive reconstruction processes."
Maybe the despicable "Dahiya Doctrine" implementation in both Gaza and Lebanon?
How about Matan Vilnai's comment that is rocket fire were to continue then Gazans would face "shoah" or holocaust?
Or the war was designed to "send Gaza decades into the past," by Galant head of Army Command.
How about combat zones turning every living Gazan in that zone as legitimate targets?
What about Taleb al-Sanaa petition over the shelling of a UN school in the Jabaliya refugee camp killing scores of Palestinians sheltering there.
The Israeli army not only delayed a ceasefire intended to help the wounded, it sat and watched civilians starving to death alongside the corpses of their family.
Amnesty International accused Israeli military of using Palestinians as human shields. Ironic.
Does this satisfy your image of a benevolent and caring Israel?
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Bismillah
Submit
I don't think the issue was the rockets launched at Israel was the sole purpose of the war/massacre in Gaza. It also concerned a small town called Rafah bordering Egypt. Israel had controlled all sides of entry into Gaza except for the border shared with Egypt. Israel wanted to secure the border with Rafah and make sure anything that went in and out of Gaza was approved by them. To completely block of all aid and help towards Gaza, while Hamas could do nothing for the Gazans. This would also ensure that all aid that was funneled to Gaza was done so through its border with Egypt. Lifting the Gazan problem upon Egypt's shoulders.
Why didn't Israel just stop its illegal seizure of Palestenian land in the West Bank. These settlements are one of the biggest obstacles facing a future resolution and removing it would be far more sensible then invading and killing innocents.
These munitions were ideally fired at unpopulated areas termed combat zones. Areas where anything living was termed a legitimate target. Areas that still held large numbers of civilians.
Judging from the large amounts of patients suffering from incendiary burns, white phosphorous was used against civilians and did lead to extreme burns. The fact that these weapons were used to shield tanks doesn't diminish the effects it had on the Gazan population.
AI is not Hamas and Hamas is not AI. On what grounds do you dispute AI. How about the Red Cross? The United Nations? Or countless other human rights groups inside Israel as well as over the globe? Yet you eagerly accept Israeli reports. Reports that label events such as 69 soldiers wounded and go on to say 50 soldiers suffered from shock.
I think I've shown numerous examples, some admitted by Israeli military officers themselves, to counter that statement. Furthermore what do you expect Hamas to do? Grab a machine gun and wave it in the air, challenging an Apache to a dual? I do not support Hamas, but that doesn't mean that their decision not to pose as open targets for the IDF is "cowardly". Meanwhile the IDF chooses to target police officers, who are regarded internationally as noncombatants. The only reason I assume is to destabilize the area even more.
A large number of Jewish immigrants prior to the founding of Israel were illegally there. They flocked in huge numbers trying to displace the Palestinians already living there. The founding of Israel was also made by outside forces irrelevant to the Middle East and the people already inhabiting the area. The Palesetenians fled from conflict. So what? Israel took advantage of that fact and razed the homes of the Palestinians and forced them into refugee camps.
And if Israelis hadn't illegally taken the property of others there wouldn't be any refugees. Or if there hadn't been an Israel there wouldn't be any refugees. Or if Hitler hadn't been born then there wouldn't have been Zionism. So what? You can't change history. You can only look at the facts and try to improve the results of previous actions.
Perhaps the world realizes the situation as it is. There is no propaganda to sell. If anything Israeli propaganda is what floods the world's media. Israel has infinitely more connections to the media and influence on western audiences then the Palestinians do. Hence Israel can commit itself to such acts without any fear of retaliation by its Western constituents.