Will someone please talk to me?

[Curious George]

A small child would probably not even know what rape was so unless they were related to me in some way, I don't really think they would tell me. But if it came to my attention, I would report it.

Probably all of the above. But the elders would be a first port of call for JW's as they are trained counselors and would help in the process if necessary.

Well this is very different from saying "it is up to the family whether or not to report abuse."

I disagree with your attempts to defend anyone for not making the same choice for a course of action that you have stated you would take. Legally, the elders are not mandated reporters and cannot get in trouble for simply keeping silent (though they could get in trouble if they worked to cover it up). But, anyone with any decency will act. Sure you can say that God will deal with the perpetrator in the end. But, in the here and now, to not act or to defer to the family who might very well be the abusers is despicable. If the elders have a position of authority they should be able to say- we report any allegations. They can still counsel to other JW's "it is not our place to judge," but they should report and counsel all others to report as well.

 

[JayJayDee]

Well this is very different from saying "it is up to the family whether or not to report abuse."

The family may not want to put a child through any more trauma, especially if it was a relatively minor thing. Serious cases would of course be investigated. But in the end, the parents (as long as they are not the abusers) have to make a considered decision according to the effect it has had on the child.
If there is no evidence it cannot lead to a conviction. You do understand that don't you?

I disagree with your attempts to defend anyone for not making the same choice for a course of action that you have stated you would take. Legally, the elders are not mandated reporters and cannot get in trouble for simply keeping silent (though they could get in trouble if they worked to cover it up).

You are free to disagree with whatever you wish. We have a strict policy on child abuse. There is no cover up. But there is no support for false accusations or malicious gossip either.

But, anyone with any decency will act.

Decency doesn't = evidence. You can't go around accusing people without evidence. Even the police can't do that.
Would you like some mischief-making disgruntled teenager accusing you of rape just to get back at you for something?

Some men's reputations have been ruined by spiteful false accusations like that. They do occur you know, especially nowadays when children know their "rights".

Would it be OK with you if it was you who was considered guilty until proven innocent?
There is procedure to follow, no matter what emotions are evoked.

Sure you can say that God will deal with the perpetrator in the end. But, in the here and now, to not act or to defer to the family who might very well be the abusers is despicable.

That's a giant leap there CG. If the parents were the suspects, the elders would hardly defer to them. If a child spoke of abuse to others, even to other children, it would be thoroughly investigated.

If the elders have a position of authority they should be able to say- we report any allegations. They can still counsel to other JW's "it is not our place to judge," but they should report and counsel all others to report as well.

The authority of the elders only pertains to the congregation. They have no secular authority to act in any way, particularly if it is contrary to scripture.

Each case would have to be judged on its own circumstances.
You seem very quick to condemn on very little evidence...what if it was you?
Wouldn't you give every person the right to prove themselves innocent if you expected those same rights yourself?

If guilt is proven, then let the full weight of the law prevail. We have no qualms about that.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

No, I am not saying that at all. Please read my reply again.

"Nothing" is done about child abuse that cannot be substantiated by witnesses. How many child abusers carry out their abuse in public? It is a very difficult thing to "prove" unless there is physical evidence. Touching a child inappropriately is a hard thing to "prove". Unless there is more than one victim, the elder's hands are tied. Nonetheless, the 'accused' will be monitored by them at all the meetings.

I am saying that unless it can be "proven", scripturally, and legally speaking, the elders cannot act on hear-say any more than the designated legal authorities can. There must be proof and then action is taken on that evidence. What do you realistically expect the elders to do? They are not the police.

To accuse someone without proof and then take action is as wrong as the abuse itself.
An abuser then has the added satisfaction of being able to sue for wrongful accusation and defaming of his reputation. It's not the outcome anybody wants, but God will deal with him in his own time.

Any who are victims of child abuse can take action through the legally recognized authorities, and are in fact encouraged to do so if there is compelling evidence. We do not harbor child abusers. Nor are we in the business of gossiping. It is a case of "innocent until proven guilty"....would you have it otherwise?

I would not be involved in an organization that conducted itself any other way.

When a girl at my school was being raped by her dad and she told a head teacher, the police was called and came down to the school in fact.
You are right the elders are not the police and shouldn't be doing their own investigations, I will repeat! If a child goes to an elder with an accusation of rape you report the accusation to the authorities. The elders encourage the flock to go to them about any problem they have, the elders have put themselves in a position of trust and authority it is their job to contact the police about accusations of rape! Get it?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Only God knows the extent of it and he will judge them accordingly.

And what will God do? The wages of sin is death remember? Once that person dies he has paid for his sins and God isn't doing anything.

 

[savagewind]

they are trained counselors

SIGH:sad:

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

How do elders thoroughly investigate? Well let's ask the victims, they put them in the same room with their attacker and ask them questions in front of the accused. If the person doesn't confess they are free to roam around attacking other children. I they do confess they are disfellowshipped and left to roam the rest of of the world and other congregations attacking other children.
Why have victims said they were discouraged from going to the police and not only that but JWs defended their attacker in the courtroom. It's pathetic. But it's a patriarchy right? Everyone runs to defend the rapist saying the child might be lying.

 

[Pegg]

When a girl at my school was being raped by her dad and she told a head teacher, the police was called and came down to the school in fact.
You are right the elders are not the police and shouldn't be doing their own investigations, I will repeat! If a child goes to an elder with an accusation of rape you report the accusation to the authorities. The elders encourage the flock to go to them about any problem they have, the elders have put themselves in a position of trust and authority it is their job to contact the police about accusations of rape! Get it?

The procedure in all congregations is that abuse is reported to the relevant authorities.

But the legal system in Australia at lease, requires the complainant to make the formal report to the police. An Elder could not go to the police on someones behalf to make a report about a crime any more then you can go to the police and make a report for your neighbour who had his house broken into. Legally, its the victim and their family who have to file a police report.

 

[savagewind]

If there is no evidence it cannot lead to a conviction. You do understand that don't you?

Why do you not understand that the child's testimony IS EVIDENCE???????

defined: A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment:

Like I said before, become a JW and leave behind your freedom of speech forever.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

SIGH:sad:

Receiving a power point presentation from some dude in bethel and a secret elder book makes you a qualified counsellor

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The procedure in all congregations is that abuse is reported to the relevant authorities.

But the legal system in Australia at lease, requires the complainant to make the formal report to the police. An Elder could not go to the police on someones behalf to make a report about a crime any more then you can go to the police and make a report for your neighbour who had his house broken into. Legally, its the victim and their family who have to file a police report.

So you're telling me they can't report it to the police and then leave it to the parents and child to decide if they want to take it further.

 

[savagewind]

You seem very quick to condemn on very little evidence...what if it was you?

You seem to on the side of the grown men (mostly - I do not know about women pedos) and not on the side of the DEFENSELESS little child. What if it was you?

I understand if the accuser is a teenager. Then it might be possible she were making it up to do damage to an elder she hates. But a child has no reason to make up **** like that. When a child comes forward with an accusation and there is doubt then examine the adult in her or his life and see if that one might make up an accusation to give to the child. Don't you know children are mostly innocent? I think the scenario where the adult tells the child to present an accusation is EXTREMELY rare or impossible.

So you have to believe the child. There is no other way. And what the child says is EVIDENCE.

 

[savagewind]

The procedure in all congregations is that abuse is reported to the relevant authorities.

But the legal system in Australia at lease, requires the complainant to make the formal report to the police. An Elder could not go to the police on someones behalf to make a report about a crime any more then you can go to the police and make a report for your neighbour who had his house broken into. Legally, its the victim and their family who have to file a police report.

Child abuse is a crime against the congregation. THE CONGREGATION MUST STAY CLEAN. Isn't it?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

It seems she is stating that sex abuse is a criminal matter savagewind, something that the congregation recognises but a police report must be filed by victim/family (which is not quite accurate, members of the public can indeed make certain types of complaints/reports - for example if you believe your neighbor is beating their children you can call the police and make a report, however some types of reports must indeed be done by a victim or their guardian)

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

It seems she is stating that sex abuse is a criminal matter savagewind, something that the congregation recognises but a police report must be filed by victim/family (which is not quite accurate, members of the public can indeed make certain types of complaints/reports - for example if you believe your neighbor is beating their children you can call the police and make a report, however some types of reports must indeed be done by a victim or their guardian)

Not a report but to take it to court yes, the elders can report it, just like a teacher can call social services on you, even though they aren't the parent. If you actually listen to the victims and how their accusation was handled you can see how wrong the elders have been. But I'm sure they would be labelled apostates by the organisation for speaking out.

 

[savagewind]

It seems she is stating that sex abuse is a criminal matter savagewind, something that the congregation recognises but a police report must be filed by victim/family (which is not quite accurate, members of the public can indeed make certain types of complaints/reports - for example if you believe your neighbor is beating their children you can call the police and make a report, however some types of reports must indeed be done by a victim or their guardian)

I understand. It is a fact that there have been times where the victim's family have been discouraged from reporting abuse. The reason is in cases like these there is no so called evidence. The child's report is not enough for the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. There are people working hard to change that rule. The governing body is not giving up the two witness rule* peacefully. You can look it up in the news. Google Conti, Jehovah's Witness.


* the two witness rule is found in the Law of Moses. I have said the Christian congregation has adopted it as their own. It is how 2 Peter 3:4 is fulfilled. You see how they say "where is his presence"? They substitute the law for the Living God who actually knows all about the abuse.

Matthew 18:10 See that you do not think little of one of these small ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

To disregard the testimony of a child over and over and over again is breaking Jesus' command at Matthew 18:10

 

[Pegg]

So you're telling me they can't report it to the police and then leave it to the parents and child to decide if they want to take it further.

of course they can. The procedure the elders follow is exactly that. They must encourage the parents to go to the police. And within the congregation, if the accused is found guilty, they will also be dealt with within the congregation.

 

[savagewind]

of course they can. The procedure the elders follow is exactly that. They must encourage the parents to go to the police. And within the congregation, if the accused is found guilty, they will also be dealt with within the congregation.

Do you not see a problem with that?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

of course they can. The procedure the elders follow is exactly that. They must encourage the parents to go to the police. And within the congregation, if the accused is found guilty, they will also be dealt with within the congregation.

They encourage the parents, really? They can report it themselves also

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Why did an elder voluntarily leave the organisation after like 10, 15 years of being an elder and start silent lambs? Ask yourselves the question.

 

[Pegg]

They encourage the parents, really? They can report it themselves also

i cant speak for all nations, but in australia the police wont take a formal report from anyone but the victim or their parent/guardian.