Will someone please talk to me?

[savagewind]

Dear Jehovah's Witnesses. Is there a difference between you and the words you say? Of course there is. There is a difference between the person of Jesus, who you should follow because you consider yourself a follower, and the words he said. Yes or no?

 

[JayJayDee]

Did Jesus say follow what I say? No, he did not.

John 15:10 "If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.

Did Jesus say follow who I will send? No, he did not.

John 14:25, 26 “While remaining with you I have spoken these things to you. 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told you"

Matt 16:15-17 "He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Jo′nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did."

Jesus' teachings were passed on to us through the apostles and other inspired writers.
An "Apostle" is "one sent forth"...sent by whom?

Did he say follow what is written about me? No, he did not.

" And Jesus said to them: “you will all be stumbled, because it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered about."

"But it is that the word written in their Law may be fulfilled, ‘They hated me without cause.’ 26 When the helper arrives that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; 27 and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from when I began."

Again, the apostles wrote about Jesus and we are to follow what is written about him. Jesus wrote nothing down himself. Everything we know about Jesus was written down by someone else.

He said to follow him. How?

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Matt 24:19, 20 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”


Matt 24: 43-47 "But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.
45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

 

[savagewind]

Maybe you do not know the verb to follow?

To follow is not the same verb as to listen.
To follow is not the same verb as to do.
To follow is not the same verb as to obey.
To follow is not the same verb as to keep.

26 When the helper arrives that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father

Do you believe this spirit has left? In other words, that spirit helped write the words you obey, but where is it now? Does it dwell in the governing body only? Where was it for so much time?

 

[savagewind]

Here are some opposite words of the verb to follow (in English. I am sorry I do not know Greek)

precede avoid disregard go before lead misunderstand neglect not get pass over scorn shun

Are you doing any of those? Is the governing body doing any of those? Remember please those are the things that can't be possible with your adherence to "to follow". What do You think to follow means please?

I shall attempt to draw you a mind picture. If the goal of believing is to "follow" the many things said and the few orders of The Lord the soul will be going in many directions at the same time. But to follow one thing (or person) is to go in one direction only.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

How devestating it is for the children? Our children are protected from many hurtful things by being brought up with a knowledge of Bible standards. They are different from the world and sometimes they need to stand up for the truth. That takes courage in today's peer driven society.

I explained how it can be especially hurtful for JW children not just them catholic children too who are taught that their priest represents Jesus and then when they are abused by them it is even more devastating because that priest was meant to be like Christ.

That is not entirely true. Our children attend school and work like everyone else. They have friends at school and at work too.
The fact that 'worldly' friendships are not encouraged is because of what the world considers 'normal' behavior. We do not encourage sexual activity as a teenage right of passage before marriage; we do not condone weekend binge drinking or drug use such as occurs at dance parties and 'clubbing' that teens can do here in Australia at 18 years of age. We do not condone tatooing, which is so common among today's youth.

I know that JW children can play with other kids AT SCHOOL but for a lot of JW children (not all but a lot) that association stops there, they are not meant to have close friends outside of the organisation. They are told, like you said, they have nothing in common with worldly people that they are a bad influence, so they only really trust people in the organisation and when those people let them down, that it even more devastating for a child who is taught the world and it's people are being ruled by satan, don't you see?

Let me also say that none of our children are forced to become Jehovah's Witnesses. When they reach an age where they are accountable to God for their own behavior, they will make their own choice to serve God or not. Some choose not to. There is nothing parents can do about that.

I never thought they we forced, but there are ways in which your family and religion can make you feel like you have too. It's not nice to be the black sheep of the family. When all your friends and family are getting baptised and you haven't yet that can make a person feel pressured. Also getting baptised at 12, 13 years old is not an adequate age in my opinion to accept the responsibility and pressures of being a JW.

I have covered this point already.
This is not the normal response for the elders in a congregation. They would treat all accusations with the utmost care and seriousness.
But we have to remember that they are not the police. If there is nothing they can do, why expect them to do anything but offer comfort and scriptural counsel. That is their role after all.

I have already said they can go out of their way to make sure the police are informed to protect the child.

It is the world that has a pedophile problem, compounded by easy access to child pornography sites. Our organization counsels about the dangers of these things on a regular basis. But admonition is only as good as the people who heed it. Human beings are flawed and they will continue to do the wrong things right up until judgment day.

This is correct, I agree. But the problem goes all the way up to bethel Jay, what about the cases when the paedophile has confessed to the abuse and letters have been written by elders? Or elders have told bethel? Bethel have known all along that some members are paedophiles and have done nothing, that is the problem.

We all just do the best we can under the circumstances. Elders are human like everyone else. If there was no evidence but a clear indication that molestation had taken place, all were free to bring their own charges against anyone they felt was molesting their children. Wouldn't you?

Yes I would, but in the cases that have come out the police have said how uncooperative a lot of JWS and elders have been.

If you think there is any perfect organization on earth who are not battling the ramifications of human imperfection, then you must live somewhere in Disneyland. The first century Christians also had many problems due to humans making mistakes and ignoring God's counsel and their own conscience.
"There is nothing new under the sun" Solomon said. How true that is with regard to human behavior.

Human perfection will come in the new world, until then, life in this one is fraught with problems. We have to deal with them as best we can, with Jehovah's help.

It's funny how when elders mess up they are imperfect, but when someone in the world messes up it is used as an example of how the world is in the hands of the devil.
Anyway, this is more then just a mistake, there is evidence of cover ups by elders and bethel also.

 

[savagewind]

Let's pick apart the opposite of follow. Shall we?

Misunderstand is the opposite of to follow. How many times has the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society misunderstood the message? Has anyone kept count or is it too many times for even the worse troll to keep track of?

Precede? Do they do that? Oh absolutely! In fact they not only precede before Christ with their own people, they plan to do it to the whole world. Where John did it for the lost sheep of Israel and acknowledged his low status, the governing body has received the order to do it to the whole world.

Avoid. Oh ya. The governing body even teach that. AVOID all people who will not come over to OUR way of thinking.

Disregard? That's what the thread became about. They disregard the little voices of the little children. Not enough evidence they say.

Go before. I think that is like proceed.

Lead. They have taken the lead away from the spirit of God because they believe God told them to take it.

Neglect. They do not neglect their commission to preach, it is true. But what are they preaching?

Not get. Hahaha (when are you going to give me my point?)

Scorn. They do that. But it is important to know they do not scorn people. They scorn people's beliefs. All the people have to do is change their minds over to the thinking of them because God gave them that.

By the way, I am not scorning them. I actually think what they are doing is very interesting.

Pass over? They are trying not to do that. If they finally have not passed over anyone we shall call them superman.

Shun? They only shun so that they can keep doing what they are doing and God told them to do it so.... then.... that doesn't fit.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I wish that was true.
People are so paranoid these days, they can be questioned by police for taking photos of their own children in a park or at the beach if other children are present.
Teachers cannot physically comfort a child who is upset or injured because of the danger of being reported for child abuse. I don't know what its like where you live, but things here in Australia have become ridiculous!

Yes that is drastic, but you couldn't be convicted of paedophilia by taking pictures at the beach or hugging a child.

I have no doubt that due to human imperfection, some cases have been handled badly in some congregations in the past, but the odd misjudgment is not indicative of the whole body of 8 million Witnesses today.

I'm not talking about 8 million witnesses, but the elders and even people who are higher up at bethel knowing someone is a paedophile because they have confessed, and nothing has been done the child or mother have been turned away. As well as the rest of the cases that have been badly handled on top of that where the elders have protected the paedophile. Not that is has been badly handle, but that the child has been told they are lying and sent back right into the hands of their abuser and told to pray more.

Attitudes have changed and people's sensibilities have also change, sometimes for the better and sometimes, more often than not, it always seems to go too far the other way. There never seems to be balance. But please be assured that no one condones child abuse in our congregations.

No one outwardly condones child abuse but their have been elders who are more than willing to take the side of the accused even after they have been convicted of rape.

Whoa now...If you think blood transfusions are always "life saving" then you have not done any real research on blood transfusions.
Please just Google 'the dangers of blood transfusions' and think again.
Google 'bloodless surgery' while you're at it. The medical profession thank Jehovah's Witnesses for forcing them to find better alternatives to blood. It is not the "life saving" procedure it was once claimed to be. Any doctor worth his salt will not use it.

I'm no doctor, but JWs have died from refusing a blood transfusion that could of saved their life. If you would like to start a debate about the validity of blood transfusions I would be happy to follow the thread.

Have you have been visiting anti-JW websites? Can you trust them to tell the truth? It is one side of a story that is presented. Usually one very distorted side.
Can a case be heard in a court of law with only one side of a case presented? Please don't be so quick to judge.

I have been listening to the stories of saviours, not going on anti-JW websites.

You must understand the sensibilities of some human beings.
When some women are confronted with the unthinkable, they are not capable of dealing with the reality of child abuse and denial is the only thing that protects their sanity. This is an inbuilt safety mechanism in some individuals. Denial is not something they do on purpose, it is the only thing that keeps their world from crumbling down around them. The ripples go on into places they simply cannot go. They are more to be pitied than blamed IMO. That is just the nature of some human beings. Those who can face reality and deal with it, cannot possibly know how it feels to lack that ability. I know this from personal experience. It is not really their fault, but a flaw in their nature. I have family members like this.

What I understand is that it is devastating for an abused child to not be believed, many abused children are told by their abuser that if they speak out no one will believe them.

 

[savagewind]

8 million?:faint:

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

8 million?:faint:

Not 8 million?

 

[savagewind]

No one outwardly condones child abuse but their have been elders who are more than willing to take the side of the accused even after they have been convicted of rape.

“When truth is replaced by silence,the silence is a lie.”
― Yevgeny Yevtushenko

“Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence.”
― Leonardo da Vinci

“Sometimes I ask myself, "Do I have the courage to do the right thing when it matters most?" ― Jarod Kintz, This Book is Not for Sale

“The cruelest lies are often told in silence.”
― Robert Louis Stevenson, Virginibus Puerisque and Other Papers

“Lying is done with words, and also with silence.”
― Adrienne Rich, Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying

“Secrets, silent, stony sit in the dark palaces of both our hearts: secrets weary of their tyranny: tyrants willing to be dethroned.”
― James Joyce

“Silence is the ultimate weapon of power.”
― Charles de Gaulle

 

[savagewind]

Not 8 million?

I did not hear the news. Last time I checked it was seven.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I did not hear the news. Last time I checked it was seven.

is that 7 million baptised witnesses? does that count the ones who have faded away and don't go to the kingdom hall any more but have not formally disassociated themselves? Does that include children who are not baptised?

 

[savagewind]

is that 7 million baptised witnesses? does that count the ones who have faded away and don't go to the kingdom hall any more but have not formally disassociated themselves? Does that include children who are not baptised?

I think the number of Witnesses means all those submitting a report each month. That can include unbaptized publishers and children of Jehovah's Witnesses who preach but I don't know for sure.

Submitting a time report was one of my first contentions. I learned it is wise to "wait on Jehovah" so I never complained about it, but Jehovah has not done away with the time report yet. I think I would have heard about it.

The time report is what makes a person a witness I think. There can be times when no time report is submitted. For awhile the person will be counted. I do not know for how long though.

I do not know if there is a fast rule about who is and who isn't.

 

[savagewind]

I have observed that what the Jehovah's Witnesses have done is changed follow who (Jesus is who) into follow what (The governing body who interprets the scriptures for them). That is a down grade. It is not an upgrade imo.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I have observed that what the Jehovah's Witnesses have done is changed follow who (Jesus is who) into follow what (The governing body who interprets the scriptures for them). That is a down grade. It is not an upgrade imo.

To be honest it had an embarrassing start anyway, have you seen Charles Taze Russell's grave? If he was around today he would of been disfellowshipped lol!

 

[savagewind]

To be honest it had an embarrassing start anyway, have you seen Charles Taze Russell's grave? If he was around today he would of been disfellowshipped lol!

He would have been disfellowshipped for reading the pyramids. It is called pyramidology and is define thus; the study of or theory about mathematical or occult significance in measurements of the Great Pyramid of Egypt. I suppose he believed the Egyptians built into the pyramids the clues for predicting the end.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

He would have been disfellowshipped for reading the pyramids. It is called pyramidology and is define thus; the study of or theory about mathematical or occult significance in measurements of the Great Pyramid of Egypt. I suppose he believed the Egyptians built into the pyramids the clues for predicting the end.

He believed the Jews built one of the pyramids under the guide of god and put clues in it, he got the year 1914 from it.

 

[JayJayDee]

Maybe you do not know the verb to follow?

Maybe you are "debating about words"?

"Keep reminding them of these things, charging them before God as witness, not to fight about words, a thing of no usefulness at all because it overturns those listening. 15 Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright. " (2 Tim 2:14, 15)

26 When the helper arrives that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father

And where is the 'spirit of truth' when it is lost in the adopted doctrines of Christendom? If Jesus returned tomorrow, who would he find "doing the will of the Father"?

Do you believe this spirit has left? In other words, that spirit helped write the words you obey, but where is it now? Does it dwell in the governing body only? Where was it for so much time?

Since Jesus is the one who appointed "the faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his household of fellow slaves, (Matt 24:45) and since he told his disciples to "preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations", it would stand to reason that all of Christ's true disciples would be obediently 'following' Jesus' directive. He promised that he would be "with" them "all the days until the conclusion of the system of things", (Matt24:14; 28:19, 20) so they have always been doing God's will...even in the face of overwhelming odds.
Swallowed up by the weeds that Jesus foretold, they were among the "few" who dared to challenge the "church" and speak the truth. Most paid with their lives.

In the "time of the end" a 'cleansing and refining' was foretold for God's true worshippers. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10) "Abundant knowledge" would also become available at this time, so the separating of the 'sheep from the goats' began when the last days were ushered in. Daniel said that the 'wicked' would not understand anything. Who are "wicked" in God's eyes? Disobedient ones.

Christ was enthroned as king in 1914 with the conclusion of the 'gentile times" ('appointed times of the nations'. Luke 21:24) Daniel saw this event in a vision but mankind did not see it. (Dan 7:13, 14) Jesus gave his disciples a "sign" to let them know that it had taken place. (Matt 24:3-14, 21)
God's people were then liberated from Babylon the great which was clearly identified from that time onward.

True to his promise, Jesus has been "with" his disciples in getting the all important preaching work accomplished in every nation on earth. All Christians were given this assignment despite the fact that they would be hated and persecuted exactly as Jesus first disciples were. (Matt 10:11-15) Who gave Jesus' followers the hardest time? It was those who claimed to worship the same God but who preferred the traditions of men over scriptural truth.

Paul wrote....
"I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom, 2 preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all long-suffering and [art of] teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do [the] work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry." (2 Tim 4:1-5)

Each must be the judge of their own standing with God. Just be warned that a treacherous heart can lead a person into death. (Jer 17:9; Prov 14:12)

Nothing in a world ruled by the devil is as it seems.

 

[Pegg]

is that 7 million baptised witnesses? does that count the ones who have faded away and don't go to the kingdom hall any more but have not formally disassociated themselves? Does that include children who are not baptised?

no, that figure is for the active publishers (baptized & unbaptized) who are reporting their time in the ministry.

It doesnt count unbaptised children or associates or those who have left, been disfellowshiped, disassociated or inactive people.

I think the actual number is closer to 8 million now.

 

[Pegg]

He believed the Jews built one of the pyramids under the guide of god and put clues in it, he got the year 1914 from it.

thats not actually how he got the date of 1914, but there were many who did believe that the pyramids had some significance is prophecy. The bible students in those days were from many different denominations and that was just a very common idea back then.

It wasnt until many years later that the bible students realised that those ideas had no bearing on bible prophecy.