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Will someone please talk to me?
- Thread starter savagewind
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JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Not the ones who supported their nation's military. If they died, it was usually because they had volunteered to put themselves in the frontline of a war. And with the blessing of their churches, they took lives in direct violation of the Bible's teachings, trading friendship with God for 'friendship with this world'. (James 4:4)
True Christians would never have joined the military and trained to kill at the command of a political government, over political issues.
JW's were in concentration camps and prisons because they refused to take up weapons against their fellow man. They chose death over compromise, in imitation of the first Christians. Christendom's clergy condoned the killing even of other Christians who happened to be on the other side of the political conflict, violating Jesus words in 1 John 4:20, 21.
Paul wrote.....
"Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah. 20 But, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head. 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good." (Rom 12:17-21)
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to [what we are in the] flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God; and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ" (2 Cor 10:3-5)
The greatest tribulation in the history of the world is looming. It is part of the prophesy Jesus gave in Matthew 24.
"Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the worlds beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short." (Matt 24:15-22)
This had a minor fulfillment back in 70C.E. but this prophesy as a whole had much wider implications as we have already seen. It applies to Christ's return. "The disgusting thing" has yet to stand "in the Holy place".
Paranoid?
No.......just prepared.Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
Not the ones who supported their nation's military. If they died, it was usually because they had volunteered to put themselves in the frontline of a war. And with the blessing of their churches, they took lives in direct violation of the Bible's teachings, trading friendship with God for 'friendship with this world'. (James 4:4)
True Christians would never have joined the military and trained to kill at the command of a political government, over political issues.
JW's were in concentration camps and prisons because they refused to take up weapons against their fellow man. They chose death over compromise, in imitation of the first Christians. Christendom's clergy condoned the killing even of other Christians who happened to be on the other side of the political conflict, violating Jesus words in 1 John 4:20, 21.
Paul wrote.....
"Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah. 20 But, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head. 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good." (Rom 12:17-21)
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to [what we are in the] flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God; and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ" (2 Cor 10:3-5)
The greatest tribulation in the history of the world is looming. It is part of the prophesy Jesus gave in Matthew 24.
"Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the worlds beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short." (Matt 24:15-22)
This had a minor fulfillment back in 70C.E. but this prophesy as a whole had much wider implications as we have already seen. It applies to Christ's return. "The disgusting thing" has yet to stand "in the Holy place".
Paranoid?
I'm not even going to bother reading all of the this, do you seriously think the JWs were the only Christians to resist the nazi's and get sent to a concentration camp? Yes "fake Christian, sitting at the table of demons" priests also refused to comply with the nazis and were sent to concentration camps, So where gypsies and gay people and even prostitutes where targeted and sent to concentration camps.
Seriously the way JW go on and on about being prosecuted is like they looked at the Jews and was like "i got to get me some of that" so they can appear as if they are fulfilling NT prophesy. Plenty of groups both religious and non religious have faced far worse prosecution than JW. Cry me a river.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
No -- she's too nice.
(I can't follow this -- I can't see my original post as I type this.
If you believe Yehoshua ben Yosef shel Netzaret is the unique Messiah (not just an anointed one), I think you qualify as a "Messianic". You haven't said whether or not you are trinitarian (either Chalcedonian [q.v.] or some other formulation)
I am persuaded of the One in whom I trust, and in His son, Jesus; and that THEY are right. I am usually wrong about most things, being a male.
I have not had any significant contact with the JWs. I bought a Bible from them 41 years ago, but lost it before I could read it; that's it. They seemed happy with having made a sale, and left me. It was a green Bible, hardcover.
By the doctrinal criteria I specified, one COULD include the JWs and some others (such as the old Worldwide Church of God) in this category; but I do not think they receive me any more than the Christians and Jews do -- They have their own denomination, leaders, rules, by-laws, etc., which are important to them; and they think of themselves, so far as I can tell, as unique.
You sound non-trinitarian.
From all I can see, you are in the same "category" as me -- believing the Bible in at least broad outline, accepting Jesus as Messiah (whom you refer to by the archaic Hebrew spelling), and rejecting trinitarian formulations that claim this Jesus is God. People in this category are rejected by the Jews (who do not accept Jesus as Messiah) and Christians (who insist on the Trinity). On RF, this is of considerable consequence; as it limits what things we can discuss and where we can discuss them.
I am greatly relieved in knowing this, Savage. The only others I have come across so far that fit into this niche are Zadoc and Shermana. Believe me, we are none of us on the same page on many matters; but it is wonderful to find someone else in the same "out-group" as myself.
Thank you for your response.
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JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
There was one major difference between those of other religions who resisted Hitler and Jehovah's Witnesses. There were those whom he categorized as unworthy of life and he sought to exterminate them as if they were vermin. He hated resisters and those who did not fit the criteria for his super race.....but he only offered Jehovah's Witnesses their freedom in exchange for renouncing their God. He didn't do that to anyone else.
It's a pity that the individuals who refused to support Hitler did not have the backing of their church who sought instead to prop up Hitlers evil regime. The Pope signed a concordat with the Nazi's. Go check your history. Individuals may have protested about his inhuman activities, and rightly so, but as a body, the church was strangely silent except in heiling Hitler.
Not for any other reason than that he deemed them to be racially or genetically inferior and wanted to get rid of them from his perfect world where he would reign supreme like a God himself. You do realize that the third reich was the third millennium spoken about in the Bible, but Hitler saw himself as the fuehrer (father).
Do you know much about the persecution of the first Christians, Horrible?
They too were given the option of renouncing their God and walking free. They chose death in the arenas, torn apart by wild animals, rather than compromise.
Perhaps some research on the subject, instead of the snide remarks might be in order.
You might want to Google the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses and see how widespread it has actually been....not just in Nazi Germany. In many nations, thousands of our brothers languish in prison because of refusing military service. You clearly have no idea.
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; l if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours."
You might check out Jehovah's Witness REAL history. It seems at first they tried to get on Hitlers "good" side. When it didn't work THEN they preached against him. Check it out.
Also, early Bible Student literature has enough racialism to put them in the same boat as everyone else at the time. Why not look it up?
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
The JWs weren't asked to give up their god completely they were asked to to salute hitler and were sent to concentration camps for their political neutrality, because they didn't take sides and of course you were either with hitler or against hitler, kind of like how JWs view themselves. We are either with you or against you and if we are against you we are against god.
I think it is kind of worse to be prosecuted for something you can not control like your ethnicity or sexual orientation than the political neutrality you have chosen to have. The Jews were the main target let's not forget that.
Anyone who resists military service is of course going to be imprisoned, anyone. That is no a specific stab at the JW.
Yes I know early Christian were prosecuted for just being Christian,
JWs are prosecuted for being politically neutral, if the law o the land doesn't allow political neutrality as a freedom or right. Just like in many places being gay is punishable by death.
My point was JWs think they are special when it comes to prosecution they are not.
I think it is kind of worse to be prosecuted for something you can not control like your ethnicity or sexual orientation than the political neutrality you have chosen to have. The Jews were the main target let's not forget that.
Anyone who resists military service is of course going to be imprisoned, anyone. That is no a specific stab at the JW.
Yes I know early Christian were prosecuted for just being Christian,
JWs are prosecuted for being politically neutral, if the law o the land doesn't allow political neutrality as a freedom or right. Just like in many places being gay is punishable by death.
My point was JWs think they are special when it comes to prosecution they are not.
:tribal2:
A very good point and perceptive.
I agree.
True
They are distorting the scripture that says Jesus' brothers will be hated.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Savage,
I am not JW; but I am surprised you are taking Horroble's side like this. I have a distant cousin who died at Auschwitz. He was a Roman Catholic Slovenian. His son was killed by the Nazis as reprisal for a Partisan attack in the area. Several months later, when the Germans again wanted to instil fear in the local populace, the father was sent to the concentration camp, where he died. He wore a black or red triangle, not a JW insignia nor a Star of David. Another cousin was inducted into forced labor for the Germans, escaped to the Eastern Front, was interred by the Soviets, escaped again and made his way back to Slovenia weighing 72 pounds.
It is sickening to see people here using those who suffered under Hitler as fuel for cheap debates. Please have some decency.
I am sorry. It's not cheap imo. They go door to door soliciting loyalty for their cause from everyone*. Their cause is not much different from Hitler's cause. What was Hitler's cause? He sought the whole world for his own people. That is what they do too. They don't use physical force. OK. They use emotional manipulation. One of their emotional tactics is using twisted history. It is propaganda. They claim Jesus is their Lord who they follow. Jesus sees prpaganda as unclean and won't touch it ever. Never.
*EVERYONE. The needy, the young, the inexperienced, the incompetent. Many are defenceless. If they change their minds later they absolutely will be shunned by the others to a greater or a lesser extent.
WWII is not hallowed ground. It must be exposed.
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
Bland you seemed to have missed my point, JWs like to bring up nazi germany as evidence that they are specially prosecuted-that is sickening
I even had a JW boast about it telling me that JWs shared their food with each other in the concentration camps and the jews didn't.
Forum is all about missing points, isn't it?
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
like i said I have complete respect and sympathy for the JW who resisted hitler and anyone else who did
Have some decency he says. So I looked it up.
Decency - behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality or respectability.
OK. I don't conform. Am I worried? I don't think so.
Accepted standards. I don't agree with the accepted standards.
Morality. I look that one up too. - principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. I believe once everyone figures out what is right it's usually too late to save many people.
Respectability. Impossible. I have enough proof to convince myself it is not possible for me. Though I am still working on respectablity from Heaven's stand. I am sure the world's respect and heaven's respect are worlds apart.
OK?
Decency - behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality or respectability.
OK. I don't conform. Am I worried? I don't think so.
Accepted standards. I don't agree with the accepted standards.
Morality. I look that one up too. - principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. I believe once everyone figures out what is right it's usually too late to save many people.
Respectability. Impossible. I have enough proof to convince myself it is not possible for me. Though I am still working on respectablity from Heaven's stand. I am sure the world's respect and heaven's respect are worlds apart.
OK?
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I heard you.
OK? He left. Usually they do after they have resorted to insult.
I do not mind being insulted....it means I'm a masochist....or a writer....or something.
Troll....that's it! Not you, me. Haha
Troll....that's it! Not you, me. Haha