Will the real Islam please stand up

[England my lionheart]

Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked, 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will be like me and my companions."

So which sect is it? after reading Sayyid Qutbs "Milestones" Qutbists seem to think its them,what do you think?

 

[Onkara]

Here is an attempt at an answer

"verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one. They are those who will be like me and my companions."

The answer is that those who follow the Prophets(PBUH) words and recognise him as their true spiritual companion are the exception, mentioned above without a defined name.

Those who believe they are a sect, or give a defined name to their group are automatically one of the 72 for they cause division. For this reason the Prophet did not reply with a name of a group or sect. His message was that of the word of Allah. Only the word of Allah is worth following. Allah requires no group or sect to be better from the next, rather all require Allah for their exitance. The true woshiper of Allah, will place Allah above all sects and groups and all will be in the fire except that one.

 

[A-ManESL]

Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked, 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will be like me and my companions."

So which sect is it? after reading Sayyid Qutbs "Milestones" Qutbists seem to think its them,what do you think?

Hola EML,

Who are the Qutbists? Do you mean those who revere Sayyid Qutb. I do not think that they have a different school of jurisprudence/theology; as such they can't be called a sect. And BTW what do you mean by a sect anyway?

My personal opinion is that it is not exterior differences but interior attitudes which are being referred to in the tradition cited. The section who is interiorally pure is to be approved of, mere acknowledgement to any school of jurisprudence/theology holds no value.

Regards.

 

[England my lionheart]

Here is an attempt at an answer
The answer is that those who follow the Prophets(PBUH) words and recognise him as their true spiritual companion are the exception, mentioned above without a defined name.

Those who believe they are a sect, or give a defined name to their group are automatically one of the 72 for they cause division. For this reason the Prophet did not reply with a name of a group or sect. His message was that of the word of Allah. Only the word of Allah is worth following. Allah requires no group or sect to be better from the next, rather all require Allah for their exitance. The true woshiper of Allah, will place Allah above all sects and groups and all will be in the fire except that one.

Thanks for the reply,what does Muhammed mean by "they will be like me and my companions" ,Qutb seems to think that this means keeping seperate from the Jahilia.

 

[Onkara]

Thanks for the reply,what does Muhammed mean by "they will be like me and my companions" ,Qutb seems to think that this means keeping seperate from the Jahilia.

Hi England
I took up the challange as I saw it in the Relgious Debates section, although I feel I should point out that Onkarah is not a Islamic Scholar and I don't think he can give you the answer you appear to require on Qutb and Jahilia. Although I am respectful of Islam, I do not want to assume my answer is correct.

My impression is that by not defining a sect, the Prohet (PBUH) is communicating that it is the divsion into 72 sects which will be their error. He, most intellegiently, answers this by saying that the true sect.. "will be like me and my companions". To me this implies that one must be as pure and as exact as the Prophet's companions and so like the Prohet in their approach or they will fail.

Logically, how can any sect be more accurate and correct than the holly Prohet and his close companions? I do not consider it to be more than the most honest asnwer the Prophet may have choosen to reply with, in this case.

I hope my elaboration is a little more clear. It is an interesting question!

 

[England my lionheart]

Hola EML,

Who are the Qutbists? Do you mean those who revere Sayyid Qutb. I do not think that they have a different school of jurisprudence/theology; as such they can't be called a sect. And BTW what do you mean by a sect anyway?

Hola ,Buenos notches Amigo,Qutbists are not a sect like Salafi/Wahabbi/Hanafi etc
but people who revere him such as the Taleban or the Muslim Brotherhood.

My personal opinion is that it is not exterior differences but interior attitudes which are being referred to in the tradition cited. The section who is interiorally pure is to be approved of, mere acknowledgement to any school of jurisprudence/theology holds no value.

Regards.

You opinion is appreciated

 

[England my lionheart]

Hi England
I took up the challange as I saw it in the Relgious Debates section, although I feel I should point out that Onkarah is not a Islamic Scholar and I don't think he can give you the answer you appear to require on Qutb and Jahilia. Although I am respectful of Islam, I do not want to assume my answer is correct.

My impression is that by not defining a sect, the Prohet (PBUH) is communicating that it is the divsion into 72 sects which will be their error. He, most intellegiently, answers this by saying that the true sect.. "will be like me and my companions". To me this implies that one must be as pure and as exact as the Prophet's companions and so like the Prohet in their approach or they will fail.

Logically, how can any sect be more accurate and correct than the holly Prohet and his close companions? I do not consider it to be more than the most honest asnwer the Prophet could reply with in this case.

I hope my elaboration is a little more clear. It is an interesting question!

It is interesting and what you say makes sense,although ten people can read the same book and each glean a different meaning and perhaps this is whats happened with Qutb,after all he wrote "Milestones" whilst serving 10 years in Prison.

 

[Onkara]

It is interesting and what you say makes sense,although ten people can read the same book and each glean a different meaning and perhaps this is whats happened with Qutb,after all he wrote "Milestones" whilst serving 10 years in Prison.

Two thoughts arise from the above:
1) Surely truth should be the same regardless of who reads it. If so then the truth is what makes sense without brining in other factors i.e. what do you personally think based on the Prophets words only?

2) Would the best approach be to side with the interpreter who has little to gain from their conclusion. A vested interest in anything can often influence a conclusion and so best avoided when trying to choose from 10 perspectives.

I hope some Muslims may shed some more scholary insights.

 

[England my lionheart]

I too hope some Muslims will shed some light too

 

[Cordoba]

True Islam is moderate mainstream Islam

In Muslim countries, during many centuries, traditional centers of learning and teaching Islam, like Al-Azhar in Egypt and Zaytuna in Tunisia, were the main sources of knowledge and moderation

Going back to history, when Napoleon and his army invaded Egypt in 1798, one of the first things they did when they entered Cairo was to go into Al-Azhar mosque with their horses. European colonization which followed in the 19th and 20th century completed the job, and by mid 20th. century all these centers of learning were destroyed from within.

The void was to be replaced by Islamic groups who had only a partial knowledge of Islam, which is very dangerous, and what made some of them turn violent and fanatic is that they were severely tortutred in Arab prisons by socialist regimes who took power after the departure of the British and French at the end of the European colonial era. Sayed Qutb for example was one of them. Before going to jail, his writings and line of thought was reasonably moderate. After going to prison and seeing all the injustice and torture which took place, his moderatioon was replaced with an extreme reaction, and one of the books he wrote in this second phase is the milestones book.

That, in a nutshell, is the historical background of why these radical groups emerged, they understood some aspects of Islam but the failed to understand what true Islam Islam is all about, which is peace, freedom and justice for all

 

[Cordoba]

So who represents moderate mainstream Islam today?

(imo) in the West, people like Dr. Jamal Badawi in Canada, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf Hansen in the US, and Sheikh Abdel Hakim Murad of Cambridge in the UK ...

There are many more names like Imam Zaid Shakir and Imam Suhaib Webb in the US, and of course in Europe Dr. Tariq Ramadan

 

[Moonstone]

Epic title..Cordoba, what do you think of Yusuf Estes? He was my favorite when I was studying Islam
-Dot

 

[England my lionheart]

Hi Cordoba,Qutb is facinating because he,as you say,was pretty moderate,he was also educated as was Al Banna and festering for 10 years in Prison must have made him bitter.
However his views are popular in all the wrong places,especially where there is little education although Osama Bin Laden was educated he was a great admirer of Qutb.

As for the 73 sects of Islam and which is the rightly guided ,The companions asked, 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will be like me and my companions."

To me this seems pretty straightforward,if you exactly follow the path of the Prophet then you are in the right sect,now Qutb has used this to mean that any Muslim not living under Sharia or any Muslim living under a Secular Government is takfir.

 

[aymen amir]

Hi Cordoba,Qutb is facinating because he,as you say,was pretty moderate,he was also educated as was Al Banna and festering for 10 years in Prison must have made him bitter.
However his views are popular in all the wrong places,especially where there is little education although Osama Bin Laden was educated he was a great admirer of Qutb.

As for the 73 sects of Islam and which is the rightly guided ,The companions asked, 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will be like me and my companions."

To me this seems pretty straightforward,if you exactly follow the path of the Prophet then you are in the right sect,now Qutb has used this to mean that any Muslim not living under Sharia or any Muslim living under a Secular Government is takfir.

AS a Muslim , what i can say is what the prophet(pbuh) meant is that who ever doesn't follow me and my companions is taking the wrong path and by wrong path i don't mean they are out of Islam . This is what most of the Muslim scholars of our time say ..& about living under the sharia we have a clear statement that we should listen to our leaders(presidents) even if they are not ruling with sharia

 

[England my lionheart]

AS a Muslim , what i can say is what the prophet(pbuh) meant is this is that who ever doesn't follow me and my companions is taking the wrong path and by wrong path i don't mean they are out of Islam . This is what most of the Muslim scholars of our time say ..& about living under the sharia we have a clear statement that we should listen to our leaders(presidents) even if they are not ruling with sharia

Qutb has used the same formula as the Nazi Party did with Politics,the hatred of the Jewish people and the Zionist conspiracy along with the big bad sinning west

From "Milestones"

Look at this capitalism with its monopolies, its usury and whatever else is unjust in it; at this individual freedom, devoid of human sympathy and responsibility for relatives except under the force of law; at this materialistic attitude which deadens the spirit; at this behavior, like animals, which you call `free mixing of the sexes;` [16] at this vulgarity which you call `emancipation of women;` at these unfair and cumbersome laws of marriage and divorce, which are contrary to the demands of practical life; and at Islam, with its logic, beauty, humanity and happiness ... these facts, when seen in the light of Islam made the American people blush. Yet there are people -- exponent of Islam -- who are defeated before this filth ... they search for resemblances to Islam among this rubbish heap of the West ... [p.139]​

 

[aymen amir]

Qutb has used the same formula as the Nazi Party did with Politics,the hatred of the Jewish people and the Zionist conspiracy along with the big bad sinning west

From "Milestones"

Look at this capitalism with its monopolies, its usury and whatever else is unjust in it; at this individual freedom, devoid of human sympathy and responsibility for relatives except under the force of law; at this materialistic attitude which deadens the spirit; at this behavior, like animals, which you call `free mixing of the sexes;` [16] at this vulgarity which you call `emancipation of women;` at these unfair and cumbersome laws of marriage and divorce, which are contrary to the demands of practical life; and at Islam, with its logic, beauty, humanity and happiness ... these facts, when seen in the light of Islam made the American people blush. Yet there are people -- exponent of Islam -- who are defeated before this filth ... they search for resemblances to Islam among this rubbish heap of the West ... [p.139]​

thats true , but there is nothing that Muslims can do !! any attempt to change the government or the president will only result in coas ...

 

[maro]

Qutb has used this to mean that any Muslim not living under Sharia or any Muslim living under a Secular Government is takfir.

I don't think he said or meant that...because that would make him a kafir ,himself

i have started reading milestones after you asked about it in the Islam DIR...i haven't finished it yet ,so i can't judge it.....all i can say is that i have no problem with what i am reading so far...the main idea i got from the book is 'Secularism is kufr'..which is not news ,really

another thing , is that there are no qutbs , Sayyed qutb was a sunni muslim ,just like 90% of muslims

we have a clear statement that we should listen to our leaders(presidents) even if they are not ruling with sharia

I don't think we have such 'clear statment' brother..or may be it wasn't clear enough to me !!!!

 

[aymen amir]

I don't think he said or meant that...because that would make him a kafir ,himself

i have started reading milestones after you asked about it in the Islam DIR...i haven't finished it yet ,so i can't judge it.....all i can say is that i have no problem with what i am reading so far...the main idea i got from the book is 'Secularism is kufr'..which is not news ,really

another thing , is that there are no qutbs , Sayyed qutb was a sunni muslim ,just like 90% of muslims



I don't think we have such 'clear statment' brother..or may be it wasn't clear enough to me !!!!

i read it in some book i will try to Quote it when i find it

PEACE

 

[aymen amir]

I don't think he said or meant that...because that would make him a kafir ,himself

i have started reading milestones after you asked about it in the Islam DIR...i haven't finished it yet ,so i can't judge it.....all i can say is that i have no problem with what i am reading so far...the main idea i got from the book is 'Secularism is kufr'..which is not news ,really

another thing , is that there are no qutbs , Sayyed qutb was a sunni muslim ,just like 90% of muslims



I don't think we have such 'clear statment' brother..or may be it wasn't clear enough to me !!!!

Is it permissible to rebel against the ruler?

please read it at the following

موقع الإسلام سؤال وجواب - هل يجوز الخروج على الØ*اكم ØŸ

 

[maro]

Is it permissible to rebel against the ruler?

please read it at the following

موقع الإسلام سؤال وجواب - هل يجوز الخروج على الØ*اكم ؟

thank you for the link

now ,it's your turn to read this : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...horitorian-followers.html?highlight=followers