Will the real Messianic Jews please stand up

[Zardoz]

I hate to sound harsh, but I really have no interest in any church movement. Nothing from the church except the words of Yeshua is salvageable. Even the words themselves must be scrutinized for tampering or downright falsification.

1. Accept Jesus as God's Anointed.

2. Reject the Trinity doctrine.

Anyone who believes those two tenets is rejected by most Jews because of #1, and by most Christians because of #2.

Jews reject #1 BECAUSE of #2, and all that has happened in it's name. The goal of Ebionite-ism is to purge trinity doctrine and all it's products completely. Then, even though #1 will still be rejected by many Jews, idolatry will no longer be the reason.

 

[Shermana]

I hate to sound harsh, but I really have no interest in any church movement. Nothing from the church except the words of Yeshua is salvageable. Even the words themselves must be scrutinized for tampering or downright falsification.



Jews reject #1 BECAUSE of #2, and all that has happened in it's name. The goal of Ebionite-ism is to purge trinity doctrine and all it's products completely. Then, even though #1 will still be rejected by many Jews, idolatry will no longer be the reason.

You should learn and train in the art of destroying Trinity arguments, even if you don't believe in the Book of John, you can at least learn to defeat them by their own books. Besides, it's a blast! There's often plenty of room for practice on the threads here.

 

[Zardoz]

Please see my post over in the Pearls thread, it has relevance here.

On John, I have already reconstructed the probable original text to my own satisfaction, before it was corrupted into the greek. Not that I would use it in rebuttal to them, as it was a personal exercise.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

I hate to sound harsh, but I really have no interest in any church movement. Nothing from the church except the words of Yeshua is salvageable. Even the words themselves must be scrutinized for tampering or downright falsification.

Jews reject #1 BECAUSE of #2, and all that has happened in it's name. The goal of Ebionite-ism is to purge trinity doctrine and all it's products completely. Then, even though #1 will still be rejected by many Jews, idolatry will no longer be the reason.

I assume your post was in response to mine. It's virtually impossible to have any discussion here or anywhere on RF, with their myriad rules and regulations. Apparently, Messianic Jews are not allowed to discuss things on the Messianic Jewish DIR, if doing so leads to a difference of opinion (hence, a "debate").

I honestly don't know how to respond to what you've said. Which of us here is the "enquirer", and which is the "Messianic Jew"? Apparently, there ARE no "Messianic Jews" on RF -- except perhaps for me, and that is through my own self-definition; so this DIR is meaningless.

 

[Dove]

I assume your post was in response to mine. It's virtually impossible to have any discussion here or anywhere on RF, with their myriad rules and regulations. Apparently, Messianic Jews are not allowed to discuss things on the Messianic Jewish DIR, if doing so leads to a difference of opinion (hence, a "debate").

I honestly don't know how to respond to what you've said. Which of us here is the "enquirer", and which is the "Messianic Jew"? Apparently, there ARE no "Messianic Jews" on RF -- except perhaps for me, and that is through my own self-definition; so this DIR is meaningless.

Hi

Sorry to butt into your conversation, but I would be very interested in speaking with you about Messianic Judaism and Judaism in general.

Would it be ok if I sent you a private message?

 

[Shermana]

I assume your post was in response to mine. It's virtually impossible to have any discussion here or anywhere on RF, with their myriad rules and regulations. Apparently, Messianic Jews are not allowed to discuss things on the Messianic Jewish DIR, if doing so leads to a difference of opinion (hence, a "debate").

I honestly don't know how to respond to what you've said. Which of us here is the "enquirer", and which is the "Messianic Jew"? Apparently, there ARE no "Messianic Jews" on RF -- except perhaps for me, and that is through my own self-definition; so this DIR is meaningless.

Go to "Same Faith" debates and specify "Messianic Jews" in the Title.

Problem solved!

 

[Shermana]

Please see my post over in the Pearls thread, it has relevance here.

On John, I have already reconstructed the probable original text to my own satisfaction, before it was corrupted into the greek. Not that I would use it in rebuttal to them, as it was a personal exercise.

Have you been to Bernard Muller's Historical-Jesus.info site?

He specializes in a reconstruction on the Book of John there, among others like Revelation. I personally really like how he thinks John ends at 20:24 for starters, that way the ending doesn't totally clash with that of Matthew and Luke.

I love when Christians dodge the question when I ask them where Jesus first appeared to the disciples. It would be so much easier for them if they accepted that the ending of John may be a bit of a forgery, but then there goes their precious John 20:28. The cognitive dissonance must be harsh for them.

 

[Zardoz]

I assume your post was in response to mine. It's virtually impossible to have any discussion here or anywhere on RF, with their myriad rules and regulations. Apparently, Messianic Jews are not allowed to discuss things on the Messianic Jewish DIR, if doing so leads to a difference of opinion (hence, a "debate").

I honestly don't know how to respond to what you've said. Which of us here is the "enquirer", and which is the "Messianic Jew"? Apparently, there ARE no "Messianic Jews" on RF -- except perhaps for me, and that is through my own self-definition; so this DIR is meaningless.

Not meaningless, but very problematic. See, there are two different groups here; those from Jewish backgrounds and those from Christian backgrounds. That creates a very wide spectrum of doctrine/dogma/belief, but the membership is not large enough to merit having sub-dirs within. When I first came here, this DIR was gathering dust in a remote Xian sub-dir. Where I couldn't use it. So I petitioned to have it moved out here, by itself.

 

[MessianicJew]

To whoever wrote they don't accept the book of john...

Illiterate john wrote revelation in poor Greek, yet all yochanine writings are written to a scholarly level.

It also looks like it is a combination if two or more documents, containing the core story of the messiah and a few things that he probably did say (let he who is without sin cast the first stone) mixed with the rebel that the Pharisees wanted him to be (had he broken the sabbath or lied he wouldn't be the messiah or sinless yet john has him do both, while the Synoptics show him correct the sabbath), it also shows him arrogant, fearless, unsure of whether he is man or god in human form (he still mainly refers to himself as the sin and as a human but tell that to a Trinitarian) and seems to push this mithraic Hellenic roman idol persona of faith and love being ALL that matters, as if the laws don't exist.


Matthew and Mark (and most of Luke - which, like John, is also inaccurate to an extent) show that faith is just the mustard seed, brilliant to have, but if not watered and nurtured, amounts to nothing, and that adherence to the law and love for the Father are the tree and the fruit.

Both nonmessianic Jews and lawless paulian Christians are like the fig tree - they have the foundation of a tree, and the leaves that tell someone that there should be fruit upon this tree, but without the sacrifice of the messiah the Jews will be fruitless, and the Christians,without the law, are incapable of producing fruit.

 

[Shermana]

things that he probably did say (let he who is without sin cast the first stone

You mean probably did NOT say? That's the pericope adulterae, a likely interpolated passage.

Where does John have him actively break the Sabbath instead of correcting them on their misunderstanding and hypocrisy on it as opposed to the SYnoptics?

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Hi

Sorry to butt into your conversation, but I would be very interested in speaking with you about Messianic Judaism and Judaism in general.

Would it be ok if I sent you a private message?

Sorry for not answering you earlier, Dove. Yes, please message me if you want to speak privately. Just click on my name link, and walk through the instructions.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Have you been to Bernard Muller's Historical-Jesus.info site?

Not knowingly.

He specializes in a reconstruction on the Book of John there, among others like Revelation. I personally really like how he thinks John ends at 20:24 for starters, that way the ending doesn't totally clash with that of Matthew and Luke.?

I just checked out his SITE. I do not want to cast aspersions on him; but he has a writing style that puts me to sleep.

I love when Christians dodge the question when I ask them where Jesus first appeared to the disciples.

Shermana, I think you're over-fond of arguing. I hope I'm not as well.

It would be so much easier for them if they accepted that the ending of John may be a bit of a forgery, but then there goes their precious John 20:28. The cognitive dissonance must be harsh for them.

Danger! Danger! We are on a DIR! Let's go over to my "Messianic Judaism" thread in the "Single Faith Discussions" for that one. Transferring now...

 

[MessianicJew]

For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath - john 5-18

Note, it doesnt say "accused of"... And we know that he didn't break the sabbath.


I have no problem believing that he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - who is without sin that will rain down stones upon the unrepentant wicked in the end times?

She deserved death but he had compassion on her on the condition that she doesn't sin again, a full 180 from Paul's lie of "all sins are nailed to the cross", we care forgiven through our desire to turn away from sin and to obey the laws, failure to life by the HaKodesh law results in death rather than one mistake, if I've understood correctly.


I'm intrigued as to why you appear to believe the complete opposite to me there, would you mind explaining your POV? Thanks

Danny

 

[Shermana]

I think you're over-fond of arguing

There's no such thing as being over-fond of arguing! I live for the fight.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath - john 5-18

Note, it doesnt say "accused of"... And we know that he didn't break the sabbath.

I have no problem believing that he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - who is without sin that will rain down stones upon the unrepentant wicked in the end times?

She deserved death but he had compassion on her on the condition that she doesn't sin again, a full 180 from Paul's lie of "all sins are nailed to the cross", we care forgiven through our desire to turn away from sin and to obey the laws, failure to life by the HaKodesh law results in death rather than one mistake, if I've understood correctly.

I'm intrigued as to why you appear to believe the complete opposite to me there, would you mind explaining your POV? Thanks

Danny

Hi, Danny. You are new here, so I must tell you the rules before we get going here: In the"DIR" sections (those in blue), we are not allowed to argue -- even if we're Jewish. You need to post at

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/155202-messianic-judaism-discussions-3.html​

Once there, we can

argue​

all we want.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Not meaningless, but very problematic. See, there are two different groups here; those from Jewish backgrounds and those from Christian backgrounds. That creates a very wide spectrum of doctrine/dogma/belief, but the membership is not large enough to merit having sub-dirs within. When I first came here, this DIR was gathering dust in a remote Xian sub-dir. Where I couldn't use it. So I petitioned to have it moved out here, by itself.

Problematic indeed, which is why I took Shermana's advice and started

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/155202-messianic-judaism-discussions-3.html

I am from a Christian background; but Christians reject me because I do not accept Trinitarianism. I specifically banned Trinitarians from posting on my thread, so this narrows the doctrinal spectrum to include both you and me but exclude the likes of "Jews for Jesus". I don't expect throngs to visit the site, but we should be able to get some good discussions in.

 

[Avi1001]

It is, but apparently we are not allowed to debate here.

I think you are right. Since this is a DIR, we are only permitted to ask questions. No debate allowed.

Are there still any posters in this DIR ?

 

[Zardoz]

I don't post much here anymore, have plenty of threads where I've said all I need to say.

I just check it for new activity daily, see if any new MJ come on RF.

 

[Avi1001]

I don't post much here anymore, have plenty of threads where I've said all I need to say.

I just check it for new activity daily, see if any new MJ come on RF.

Ok, so are you a Messianic Jew ? Can you explain the term "Ebionite" in your Religion label ? Is it similar to a Nazarene ? How do you feel about prosthelytizing ?

I am becoming more interested in learning about Messianic Judaism. Can we have some interfaith dialogue ?

Btw, can I be a "Cultural Messianic Jew" ?

 

[Zardoz]

I don't know a lot about Nazarenes, actually. Gentile Xians called us heretics because we would not accept the trinitarian theology of Xianity. MJ is a term too much associated with such trinitarian theology, so I avoid it because of that. I also reject proselytizing, if it relates to convincing Jews to worship in a way that is against Torah. 'Proselytizing' to promote proper approach to Torah observance, which is what Yeshua actually taught, I am all for. I am happy to explain the real Jewish meaning of these teachings, but hardly call it 'interfaith' as I am a Jew first and foremost.