Witchcraft (Definitions)

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, I was having a conversation with my friend whose from the Philippines and born in the U.S. I was born and raised in the U.S. and never traveled. We had a conversation about witchcraft surprisingly and shared different views.

Her view is a kin to folk magic. She says all the witchcraft she experienced was in itself bad and had negative influences on her. Unlike pagan thought today where many focus on the intent of the "spell caster" in her case, the spell itself was bad as well as the intent of the person. She sees no good in witchcraft at all.

I, on the other hand, see witchcraft or the practice of magic in different ways. When I give reverence to my deceased relatives, that is part of the Craft. When I see wine/bread transform to body/blood of Christ, I see spell craft. I do not call it such because to me, both good and bad spell craft is normal and part of life. Why have a separate word for witchcraft when it is part of life itself.

I try to explain this to her, but she says that traveling outside of the country she sees witchcraft as an evil practice. People use it for not for the betterment of others. She says here in America it is watered down. It is mixed with New Age and not "real" witchcraft.

While modern paganism is, well modern, the craft has been here for years, and years before. How do I explain to my friend the good part of the craft while maintaining that there is folk magic within it and not belittling the modern side while still adhering and acknowledging the centuries long heritage of the craft?

 

[Mophiax]

I propose that you focus on the ritual explanation of Witchcraft - folk magic and all the other spellcasting practises are essentially a form of ritual.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well, I was having a conversation with my friend whose from the Philippines and born in the U.S. I was born and raised in the U.S. and never traveled. We had a conversation about witchcraft surprisingly and shared different views.

Her view is a kin to folk magic. She says all the witchcraft she experienced was in itself bad and had negative influences on her. Unlike pagan thought today where many focus on the intent of the "spell caster" in her case, the spell itself was bad as well as the intent of the person. She sees no good in witchcraft at all.

I, on the other hand, see witchcraft or the practice of magic in different ways. When I give reverence to my deceased relatives, that is part of the Craft. When I see wine/bread transform to body/blood of Christ, I see spell craft. I do not call it such because to me, both good and bad spell craft is normal and part of life. Why have a separate word for witchcraft when it is part of life itself.

I try to explain this to her, but she says that traveling outside of the country she sees witchcraft as an evil practice. People use it for not for the betterment of others. She says here in America it is watered down. It is mixed with New Age and not "real" witchcraft.

While modern paganism is, well modern, the craft has been here for years, and years before. How do I explain to my friend the good part of the craft while maintaining that there is folk magic within it and not belittling the modern side while still adhering and acknowledging the centuries long heritage of the craft?

She's using the No True Scotsman fallacy; anything labeled as "witchcraft" that does not fit her preconceived notions of "witchcraft" is not "true witchcraft." That's based entirely on preconceptions, and denial of any potential contradiction that might shed new light.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

The word 'witchcraft' has been used in many contexts to define many different phenomenon. As the meaning of the word has shifted over time, this brings about disagreement as to the 'real' meaning of the word. The English language has about 100 000 words to define countless zillions of concepts.

The traditional meaning from not only the bible, but also from Indian and African culture is that a witch is a woman who marries in order to murder her husband and thus inherit his property. Nowadays, she uses the divorce and maintenance laws and doesn't need to get her hands so dirty.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Oh my gosh, really? How words change--in this case, for the better to save people's lives. Yeah, words do change in meaning. It was hard explaining some things even though she was born here and throughout her adult live, raised here. However, she identifies with her culture rather than nationality.

The word 'witchcraft' has been used in many contexts to define many different phenomenon. As the meaning of the word has shifted over time, this brings about disagreement as to the 'real' meaning of the word. The English language has about 100 000 words to define countless zillions of concepts.

The traditional meaning from not only the bible, but also from Indian and African culture is that a witch is a woman who marries in order to murder her husband and thus inherit his property. Nowadays, she uses the divorce and maintenance laws and doesn't need to get her hands so dirty.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know she told me that in the Philippines her neighbors would place strings in her back yard. Sometimes she would feel people touch her and conclude that someone is sending a spirit to bother her and her family. Things like that.

I looked into Santeria once since we have a shop near by. I saw little statues in front of the door with flowers and fruits beside it. It was told that the statues, once's giving your Orisha, that Orisha (or head?) inhabits the Statue you are given thereby protects your home. You give offerings to it etc. There's a lot of divination involved in the religion as well as sacred and secrete ceremonies of different points of initiation.

I am assuming my friend would consider the statue with the spirit protecting is still evil in itself would be considered witchcraft while the ceremonies like above would be just that. I don't know.

She is Roman Catholic and I think anything that is outside of that and is the unknown influences her deeply thereby, she calls it witchcraft if that "influence" comes from anything she can't explain.

I propose that you focus on the ritual explanation of Witchcraft - folk magic and all the other spellcasting practises are essentially a form of ritual.

 

[Jainarayan]

[QUOTE="Carlita, post: 4086092, member: 55631]"I am assuming my friend would consider the statue with the spirit protecting is still evil in itself would be considered witchcraft while the ceremonies like above would be just that. I don't know.[/quote]

She's wrong. The only way a statue of Yemaya, for example, could be construed as evil is if you use it for evil purposes. Even then, I do not believe it is Yemaya herself who is causing the evil, but rather you would be bypassing her because she cannot work evil. It would only seem like the evil is coming from Yemaya. Make sense?

She is Roman Catholic and I think anything that is outside of that and is the unknown influences her deeply thereby, she calls it witchcraft if that "influence" comes from anything she can't explain.

There's your basic answer; you will never convince her otherwise. Don't even try anymore.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

She's wrong. The only way a statue of Yemaya, for example, could be construed as evil is if you use it for evil purposes. Even then, I do not believe it is Yemaya herself who is causing the evil, but rather you would be bypassing her because she cannot work evil. It would only seem like the evil is coming from Yemaya. Make sense?

Yes. Yemaya is the Orisha that gives life, if I'm interpreting that correctly. I don't see how one do evil things from good spirits.


There's your basic answer; you will never convince her otherwise. Don't even try anymore.

Sighs. I keep thinking some day she will understand where I come from even if she doesn't agree.

 

[Jainarayan]

Yemaya is a Mother Goddess, associated with water and the protectress of children... definitely life-giving.

 

[McBell]

Well, I was having a conversation with my friend whose from the Philippines and born in the U.S. I was born and raised in the U.S. and never traveled. We had a conversation about witchcraft surprisingly and shared different views.

Her view is a kin to folk magic. She says all the witchcraft she experienced was in itself bad and had negative influences on her. Unlike pagan thought today where many focus on the intent of the "spell caster" in her case, the spell itself was bad as well as the intent of the person. She sees no good in witchcraft at all.

I, on the other hand, see witchcraft or the practice of magic in different ways. When I give reverence to my deceased relatives, that is part of the Craft. When I see wine/bread transform to body/blood of Christ, I see spell craft. I do not call it such because to me, both good and bad spell craft is normal and part of life. Why have a separate word for witchcraft when it is part of life itself.

I try to explain this to her, but she says that traveling outside of the country she sees witchcraft as an evil practice. People use it for not for the betterment of others. She says here in America it is watered down. It is mixed with New Age and not "real" witchcraft.

While modern paganism is, well modern, the craft has been here for years, and years before. How do I explain to my friend the good part of the craft while maintaining that there is folk magic within it and not belittling the modern side while still adhering and acknowledging the centuries long heritage of the craft?

Think of witchcraft as a hammer.

By itself it does nothing.
But in the hands of a serial killer it can be used for bad.
Just like in the hands of a carpenter it can hbe used for good.

Now what happens when a serial killer happens to also be a carpenter?

Point being the hammer is not good or bad.
it is the intentions of the one using the hammer that are good or bad.


Now replace hammer with witchcraft.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The problem is that you've got two groups of people using the same word for different purposes.

Firstly we have the use of the words witch and witchcraft, going back to Old English, to refer to the superstitious belief that there are people who go round causing evil events by occult means. You cannot dispense with that usage, because you need it in sentences like
"King James I & VI believed in witchcraft."
"People are still accused of being witches in parts of Africa."

Secondly, there is the use of the word witch to refer to those who practice the religion founded by Gerald Gardner. You can get rid of that usage, by using Wiccan.

Why Wiccans won't clarify the matter by dropping the use of witch, I don't know, but it does make a newspaper headline "Two executed in Saudi Arabia for being witches" irritatingly ambiguous!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Think of witchcraft as a hammer.

By itself it does nothing.
But in the hands of a serial killer it can be used for bad.
Just like in the hands of a carpenter it can hbe used for good.

Now what happens when a serial killer happens to also be a carpenter?

Point being the hammer is not good or bad.
it is the intentions of the one using the hammer that are good or bad.


Now replace hammer with witchcraft.

I understand where you getting at. In my experience and point of view, the witchcraft itself can be good or bad. My friend says it is all bad. I'm telling her it is both.

A serial killer can do a good spell and it will bring good results. A carpenter can do a bad spell and it will bring bad results. Just like a serial killer can make a perfect cake and it will taste good. A carpenter can make a floppy cake, and it may taste bad. It doesn't matter who the person is and their intent, if they didn't use the ingredients as needed and instructed, the cake would not be properly made.

So, in conclusion if we know what spells within witchcraft that will benefit ourselves and others (the ingredients and instructions) and keep us in touch with our beliefs, then witchcraft is good.

My friend sees all spells done by any person is bad because once it is called witchcraft she feels it has the potential to harm someone else. That's like the ingredients and instructions will make the cake taste bad no matter who cooks it and how.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ha, ha. Of course, I can't speak for all Wiccans but I guess in general its a catchy word. Some define a witch as a practitioner of magic; so, in that respect to Wiccans who practice magic, they are "witches." And whatever form of magic they use could be considered part of the occult.

However, the golden rule in the faith voids the use of witch and witchcraft from being evil in itself.

I think my friend sides with the former definition you gave. Though she says its fact rather than superstitious. I don't see witchcraft as pure intent; so, I can't side with "intent only" that many pagans use. However, I do believe some spells (cant think of a better term) that is used by anyone can bring bad results depending on the spell rather than the person.

For example, a good person and a bad person can both hold guns. If they use it properly, they can pull the trigger and it will shoot the target. While it depends on the intent (the target) is whether the result is good or bad, but I personally don't agree with guns...so using a gun would be bad to me not just the result of using it. Makes sense?

What my friend and I differ on is, she sees witchcraft as a bad tool or weapon. I see there are different types of craft one can do for or against the person--again it depends on if one is using a gun, a butter knife, or a straw.

The problem is that you've got two groups of people using the same word for different purposes.

Firstly we have the use of the words witch and witchcraft, going back to Old English, to refer to the superstitious belief that there are people who go round causing evil events by occult means. You cannot dispense with that usage, because you need it in sentences like
"King James I & VI believed in witchcraft."
"People are still accused of being witches in parts of Africa."

Secondly, there is the use of the word witch to refer to those who practice the religion founded by Gerald Gardner. You can get rid of that usage, by using Wiccan.

Why Wiccans won't clarify the matter by dropping the use of witch, I don't know, but it does make a newspaper headline "Two executed in Saudi Arabia for being witches" irritatingly ambiguous!

 

[AllanV]

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. ( the Prophet Samuel talking to King Saul )

The human genetically has a rebellious nature that is especially seen in teenagers. Who is able to tell when they are lying or being deceptive or being honest for that matter. There is some varying ability to get into another persons head (mind) and convince them against their better judgment. The human mind power is generally predatory as seen when the young and the elderly are compromised. Most people are equally empowered. But a politician or Dictator do the same thing. They use all manner of devices to gain as many as possible.
The playing out of witchcraft is subtle and not so obvious.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. ( the Prophet Samuel talking to King Saul )

Since there are millions (especially in the USA) who take such stuff seriously, that's another reason for not calling yourself a witch!

The human genetically has a rebellious nature that is especially seen in teenagers.

The belief that we are naturally "rebellious" has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with the false myth of the "fall" of man. And when I worked as a college librarian, I didn't find teenagers any more difficult (or easier, for that matter) to read than my colleagues!

 

[AllanV]

Since there are millions (especially in the USA) who take such stuff seriously, that's another reason for not calling yourself a witch!


The belief that we are naturally "rebellious" has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with the false myth of the "fall" of man. And when I worked as a college librarian, I didn't find teenagers any more difficult (or easier, for that matter) to read than my colleagues!

Adults are rebellious and babies to teenagers mimic and learn their skills from them and each other. It comes from the nature in man and the skills to manipulate, control are learned and applied by every one. The mind is generally predatory and searches for weakness in the emotional make up and more often than not this requires a strong defensive mind, and this hides God in the mind.

We all place a certain energy on the words that are spoken and they can come out as pointed remarks, lacking respect, condescending, anger, fear and everything else. It is the energy that is read because as humans everyone is familiar with it. It is taken into the mind of another person where sensations are produced in the body. The feelings being produced bring a response. Some people use their knowledge and ability in this realm of the mind to manipulate and control others. But most are equally empowered and learn skills to deflect any confidence trickery but the vulnerable are not. By being high minded or above it all a person can have the idea they are impregnable but they set themselves up for addictive and gullible behavior. They think they are making their own mind up but the good or bad feelings are being put there in the first place by some one who is masking their true intentions.

The mind connections taking place are regarded as witchcraft. The subconscious works at a rate that is far greater than normal thought and it processes what is being heard to create feelings.
There is a way to purify the self, clean the mind and be perfect.
Jesus said it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles the person because it comes from the heart. And from there all manner of evil thoughts with agendas, motives are harbored.

Of course attack is the best form of defense and this moves from the mind and verbal exchange to physical conflict. Once the pattern is set the outcome almost always is irretrievable and will not be good. Take a look at what is happening on this planet at the moment, where will it lead?

 

[Midnight Rain]

Well, I was having a conversation with my friend whose from the Philippines and born in the U.S. I was born and raised in the U.S. and never traveled. We had a conversation about witchcraft surprisingly and shared different views.

Her view is a kin to folk magic. She says all the witchcraft she experienced was in itself bad and had negative influences on her. Unlike pagan thought today where many focus on the intent of the "spell caster" in her case, the spell itself was bad as well as the intent of the person. She sees no good in witchcraft at all.

I, on the other hand, see witchcraft or the practice of magic in different ways. When I give reverence to my deceased relatives, that is part of the Craft. When I see wine/bread transform to body/blood of Christ, I see spell craft. I do not call it such because to me, both good and bad spell craft is normal and part of life. Why have a separate word for witchcraft when it is part of life itself.

I try to explain this to her, but she says that traveling outside of the country she sees witchcraft as an evil practice. People use it for not for the betterment of others. She says here in America it is watered down. It is mixed with New Age and not "real" witchcraft.

While modern paganism is, well modern, the craft has been here for years, and years before. How do I explain to my friend the good part of the craft while maintaining that there is folk magic within it and not belittling the modern side while still adhering and acknowledging the centuries long heritage of the craft?

Has she had official training in the olden ways of Witchcraft? If not then I doubt she actually has knowledge of what "witchcraft" is.

Many witches do not. There is undoubtedly new age influence in many modern practices but then we get into what is "witchcraft". Magic comes in many forms and typically we have defined 'witchcraft" to be the magic practices that were originated in Celtic or Germanic tribes in Europe. Usually there is some kind of influence from Egypt but only in some cases. For example if were to talk to a Shaman of Africa and his practices in animism and spiritual healing we probably wouldn't call it witchcraft but rather shamanism or just "magic'. There are some even within the Wiccan communities that argue about what 'witchcraft" is. Some say it requires an appeal to the god or goddess (but this isn't usually very common) and others do not. There is a belief that the practices must be done with the five elements within a circle under the full moon. So cleansing the house by burning sage or working with crystals or even energy work wouldn't be considered "witchcraft" by some people.

Without talking to her I wouldn't really be able to see what she see's as "real magic'.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

According to today's definition, I would call what she defines as witchcraft folk magic. No training as in religious wise. More of a family or community knowledge of different ways to manipulate the unknown to influence the known.

True. Calling witchcraft "energy work" is new age to her. It's a different way of phrasing the practice, I must admit; but, not fake and definitely not modern.

Has she had official training in the olden ways of Witchcraft? If not then I doubt she actually has knowledge of what "witchcraft" is.

Many witches do not. There is undoubtedly new age influence in many modern practices but then we get into what is "witchcraft". Magic comes in many forms and typically we have defined 'witchcraft" to be the magic practices that were originated in Celtic or Germanic tribes in Europe. Usually there is some kind of influence from Egypt but only in some cases. For example if were to talk to a Shaman of Africa and his practices in animism and spiritual healing we probably wouldn't call it witchcraft but rather shamanism or just "magic'. There are some even within the Wiccan communities that argue about what 'witchcraft" is. Some say it requires an appeal to the god or goddess (but this isn't usually very common) and others do not. There is a belief that the practices must be done with the five elements within a circle under the full moon. So cleansing the house by burning sage or working with crystals or even energy work wouldn't be considered "witchcraft" by some people.

Without talking to her I wouldn't really be able to see what she see's as "real magic'.

 

[Midnight Rain]

According to today's definition, I would call what she defines as witchcraft folk magic. No training as in religious wise. More of a family or community knowledge of different ways to manipulate the unknown to influence the known.

True. Calling witchcraft "energy work" is new age to her. It's a different way of phrasing the practice, I must admit; but, not fake and definitely not modern.

Well if we look at it historically the differences in magic usually are cultural. To me this tells me that the specifics behind magic workings are less important than the core of the practice which are usually the same (symbolic representations, focus for energy, focus for the mind/soul of caster, appeal to greater power either through a vague "mother nature" to animism). So even if the wtichcraft of America is significantly different it wouldn't make it any less "real". Though anyone that works with magic will tell you that belief can make it more effective.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

True. What I find different, though, from here and other countries is the emphasis on literal verses symbolization. While many pagans in America make or have correspondences for their work, religions like Santeria of Cuba or the original faith really believe that the statues (I can't think of the name) of the warriors they place at the door of their home for protection actually have the heads (a specific Orisha) the spirit within the statue for protection. The closest American "pagan" term for it would be Animism; but, I'm sure they would never call it that.

The word energy is a foreign term as well that I only hear described in pagan circles. While concrecration of bread and wine by God through the Priest isn't considered energy but the Spirit of God Himself.

I mean, I understand where my friend comes from in the respects of the differences in magic in other countries. I just don't care that she belittles magic here because of the way its expressed and the environment she is in, she doesn't "feel" the same energy (for lack of better words) than she said she does in her country.

Well if we look at it historically the differences in magic usually are cultural. To me this tells me that the specifics behind magic workings are less important than the core of the practice which are usually the same (symbolic representations, focus for energy, focus for the mind/soul of caster, appeal to greater power either through a vague "mother nature" to animism). So even if the wtichcraft of America is significantly different it wouldn't make it any less "real". Though anyone that works with magic will tell you that belief can make it more effective.