With bafflement upon bafflement!

[Redemptionsong]

No there aren't, and no it doesn't unless you completely rip it out of context.



Then this comment was odd:

"It's a strange thing that God should provide a prophecy but fail to provide a fulfilment."

What l'm saying is that hundreds of prophecies have already been fulfilled, and the rest will follow in time.

Earlier l quoted from Revelation 5:9. At the time John was writing this prophecy, Christ had not redeemed people from every nation, people, tongue and kindred. Yet, speaking to you now, l am able to say that this prophecy is well on the way to fulfilment!

It truly is a blind man who cannot see that Psalm 22 is about crucifixion. And for Jesus to quote the first line of this Psalm as he was dying, without indicating the reason for doing so, shows that he understood the significance of the Psalm, even though others struggled to comprehend!

 

[pearl]

But I'd like to begin with what the witnesses at Pentecost said about their own experience, fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:1-13 tells the whole story. Verse 13 ends with the mocking words of the doubters, 'These men are full of new wine'!

Considering the demeanor of the of the Apostles, there were the11 as Judas was no longer an apostle and had not yet been replaced, before and after, something extraordinary happened. The 'room' was locked in fear they would meet the same fate as Jesus. The movement was dead.
Yes, the account of Pentecost is 'powerful stuff', but, as tempting as it is to read this account back into Hebrew Scripture, it is very doubtful that Jesus was the intent of the biblical author, but what we as Christians like to read into it. And its understandable as the only source for who Jesus is.

.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Easy... easy there, my friend. How would I know? I mean, that's why I made the comment in the first place. I have no idea if the story in Acts is true. And please note my careful wording. I said it was "my problem". I didn't critisize. Can you show me the multiple accounts of the story about speaking in tongues?

I'm ignorant on this. Is Acts considered Gospel? Can you show me the "continuous Christian witness" that includes the story in Acts 2?

OK, so you're saying I should review something in Luke. I'll go back in your posts and look for that. But, just talking about Isa 29:9, the description of drunk without wine is not a good thing. It's a bad thing, right? So why would you apply this to the apostles and disciples of Christ? Seems counter-productive to your point?

Acts is the second book written by Luke, and he provides an historical record of the work of the Holy Spirit in the early Church, up until the Jewish Wars (66 CE). The account provided by Luke is supported by information found in the writings of the Jewish priest, Flavius Josephus, whose family members lived throughout the lifetime of Jesus, and beyond.

Paul, writing to the Church at Corinth, provides interesting insights into the use of the spiritual powers that were being manifest through faith in Jesus; and genuine evidence for these powers is available now, if you look at the ministry of Spirit-filled believers. There are many modern day ministers who 'walk by the Spirit', but I believe Sid Roth experienced this revelation for himself, and speaks openly as a Jewish convert. He can be listened to on YouTube. So too can Kathryn Krick, who has a powerful deliverance ministry.

The point l'm making here is that the Holy Spirit has never left the Church. Although absent in many religious circles, the Holy Spirit has always found humble and contrite hearts with which to commune. The evidence of this Spirit is with us today, and it is only found in those who have come to know Christ (lMHO).

Let it be said, that one cannot boast of righteousness as if it belongs to oneself. The righteousness of Christ is given by grace alone, and this by faith in Jesus. We can do nothing that deserves this grace, because, as sinners, we are all in need of Christ's salvation.

 

[dybmh]

It truly is a blind man who cannot see that Psalm 22 is not about crucifixion.

Rude. You asked for Jewish people to respond to this thread, then insult us. I'll accept your apology at any time.

 

[dybmh]

Acts is the second book written by Luke, and he provides an historical record of the work of the Holy Spirit in the early Church, up until the Jewish Wars (66 CE). The account provided by Luke is supported by information found in the writings of the Jewish priest, Flavius Josephus, whose family members lived throughout the lifetime of Jesus, and beyond.

Paul, writing to the Church at Corinth, provides interesting insights into the use of the spiritual powers that were being manifest through faith in Jesus; and genuine evidence for these powers is available now, if you look at the ministry of Spirit-filled believers. There are many modern day ministers who 'walk by the Spirit', but I believe Sid Roth experienced this revelation for himself, and speaks openly as a Jewish convert. He can be listened on YouTube. So too can Kathryn Krick, who has a powerful deliverance ministry.

The point l'm making here is that the Holy Spirit has never left the Church. Although absent in many religious circles, the Holy Spirit has always found humble and contrite hearts with which to commune. The evidence of this Spirit is with us today, and it is only found in those who have come to know Christ (lMHO).

Let it be said, that one cannot boast of righteousness as if it belongs to oneself. The righteousness of Christ is given by grace alone, and this by faith in Jesus. We can do nothing that deserves this grace, because, as sinners, we are all in need of Christ's salvation.

Thank you, This is still a pretty big stretch though. Going from evidence of the Holy Spirit to evidence of speaking in tongues as described in Acts 2 takes a rather large leap. I mean, it's not like there are folks who can demonstrate speaking in tongues on youtube. So these individuals' testimony at best still won't have much impact.

 

[Left Coast]

Paul mentions this in a letter I think. So true or not, it is an early Christian tradition.

Pentecost? No, I don't think he does.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

IMO, it's powerful stuff. What do Torah Jews make of Isaiah's prophecy?

IMHO what do Christians and Muslims also make of Isaiah's prophecy?

That is because, apart from Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah also now need to be considered.

Baha'u'llah offered

"By My life! He who hath drunk the choice wine of fairness from the hands of My bountiful favour will circle around My commandments that shine above the Dayspring of My creation. Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power..."

Which means a Baha'i is also intoxicated by that Love.

"O my God! O my God! This, Thy servant, hath advanced towards Thee, is passionately wandering in the desert of Thy love, walking in the path of Thy service, anticipating Thy favors, hoping for Thy bounty, relying upon Thy kingdom, and intoxicated by the wine of Thy gift. O my God! Increase the fervor of his affection for Thee, the constancy of his praise of Thee, and the ardor of his love for Thee.

Verily, Thou art the Most Generous, the Lord of grace abounding. There is no other God but Thee, the Forgiving, the Merciful...."

Regards Tony

 

[Left Coast]

What l'm saying is that hundreds of prophecies have already been fulfilled, and the rest will follow in time.

And of course, Jews feel that way about their prophecies too.

Earlier l quoted from Revelation 5:9. At the time John was writing this prophecy, Christ had not redeemed people from every nation, people, tongue and kindred. Yet, speaking to you now, l am able to say that this prophecy is well on the way to fulfilment!

Whole people groups have lived and died without ever even hearing of Christianity. So that prophecy has already failed.

It truly is a blind man who cannot see that Psalm 22 is not about crucifixion. And for Jesus to quote the first line of this Psalm as he was dying, without indicating the reason for doing so, shows that he understood the significance of the Psalm, even though others struggled to comprehend!

It's almost like the Gospel author wanted to make it look like the story they were writing somehow fulfilled Jewish Scripture!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Considering the demeanor of the of the Apostles, there were the11 as Judas was no longer an apostle and had not yet been replaced, before and after, something extraordinary happened. The 'room' was locked in fear they would meet the same fate as Jesus. The movement was dead.
Yes, the account of Pentecost is 'powerful stuff', but, as tempting as it is to read this account back into Hebrew Scripture, it is very doubtful that Jesus was the intent of the biblical author, but what we as Christians like to read into it. And its understandable as the only source for who Jesus is.

.

It's one source with many individual testimonies. And, what makes these testimonies believable is the fact that they shed new light on the Hebrew scriptures.

The unveiling of the scriptures is only possible because the Spirit that is enlightening the apostles and disciples after Pentecost is one and the same Spirit that rested upon Jesus. This is the Spirit, called the 'Comforter', that leads people into the truth.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Considering the demeanor of the of the Apostles, there were the11 as Judas was no longer an apostle and had not yet been replaced, before and after, something extraordinary happened. The 'room' was locked in fear they would meet the same fate as Jesus. The movement was dead.
Yes, the account of Pentecost is 'powerful stuff', but, as tempting as it is to read this account back into Hebrew Scripture, it is very doubtful that Jesus was the intent of the biblical author, but what we as Christians like to read into it. And its understandable as the only source for who Jesus is.

.

I'm really not sure what you mean here.

The apostles were in a locked room following the crucifixion, but by Pentecost they were already aware that Jesus was alive. The acension had taken place and 120 believers gathered in Jerusalem to celebrate Shavuot, as instructed by Jesus. Having stayed up all night in prayer, they received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

All these things happened in direct consequence of what is prophesied in the Hebrew scriptures. There is no Christian rewriting, for the first believers did not even consider themselves different from other Jews. They were simply Jews who recognised Jesus as the Messiah of God. This is why, when reading the history of Josephus, there is little mention of the band of poor Galilean believers who claimed to know Christ. What we do know is that this was a time of great Messianic expectation (as stated in the Talmud).

 

[Redemptionsong]

Rude. You asked for Jewish people to respond to this thread, then insult us. I'll accept your apology at any time.

I have no wish to cause hurt, but l'm taking my lead from your scriptures!

Isaiah 42:6,7. 'I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house'.

Do you consider yourself blind, or not?

 

[Redemptionsong]

And of course, Jews feel that way about their prophecies too.



Whole people groups have lived and died without ever even hearing of Christianity. So that prophecy has already failed.



It's almost like the Gospel author wanted to make it look like the story they were writing somehow fulfilled Jewish Scripture!

The first thing to realise is that the apostles of Jesus were all first century Jews. The NT is literature written by Jews in the Greek language.

The claim being made in the NT is that the Messiah of the Jews had come to earth. To substantiate such a claim requires constant reference to the Hebrew scriptures, which is what we get in the NT.

 

[Redemptionsong]

IMHO what do Christians and Muslims also make of Isaiah's prophecy?

That is because, apart from Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah also now need to be considered.

Baha'u'llah offered

"By My life! He who hath drunk the choice wine of fairness from the hands of My bountiful favour will circle around My commandments that shine above the Dayspring of My creation. Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power..."

Which means a Baha'i is also intoxicated by that Love.

"O my God! O my God! This, Thy servant, hath advanced towards Thee, is passionately wandering in the desert of Thy love, walking in the path of Thy service, anticipating Thy favors, hoping for Thy bounty, relying upon Thy kingdom, and intoxicated by the wine of Thy gift. O my God! Increase the fervor of his affection for Thee, the constancy of his praise of Thee, and the ardor of his love for Thee.

Verily, Thou art the Most Generous, the Lord of grace abounding. There is no other God but Thee, the Forgiving, the Merciful...."

Regards Tony

I'm sure we've discussed this many times before, Tony, but l cannot see that there is a need for more than one Saviour, or mediator.

The Christ of God is without sin, and takes away the sin of the world. This only needs to be accomplished once. Thereafter, the Holy Spirit can lead any man who places faith in the risen Lord. IMO.

 

[Left Coast]

The first thing to realise is that the apostles of Jesus were all first century Jews. The NT is literature written by Jews in the Greek language.

The claim being made in the NT is that the Messiah of the Jews had come to earth. To substantiate such a claim requires constant reference to the Hebrew scriptures, which is what we get in the NT.

I don't see how that responds to anything I actually said.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Thank you, This is still a pretty big stretch though. Going from evidence of the Holy Spirit to evidence of speaking in tongues as described in Acts 2 takes a rather large leap. I mean, it's not like there are folks who can demonstrate speaking in tongues on youtube. So these individuals' testimony at best still won't have much impact.

The speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost was unusual, and does not compare exactly with the phenomenon referred to by Paul in the epistles.

To my understanding, the hearing of tongues with translation, as occurred at Pentecost, is a sign that relates back to Babel. For just as God had undone the evil intentions of mankind by confusing their languages, so God unites mankind in delivering the language that expresses the love of God. Thus, the Spirit of God is able to unite mankind in a way that religion cannot.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I don't see how that responds to anything I actually said.

Tell me what you think the writers of the NT were seeking to achieve.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The prophecies for the second coming exist in both the words of Hebrew scripture, and in the words of Jesus and his apostles. We now await the final judgement.

The point was that the second coming was predicted to occur when at least some of the disciples were still alive.


Do you know nay 2,000 year old Jewish guys?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The point was that the second coming was predicted to occur when at least some of the disciples were still alive.


Do you know nay 2,000 year old Jewish guys?

Which passage are you referring to? Mark 13:30?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which passage are you referring to? Mark 13:30?

That is one of them. I do believe that it shows up in at least the three synoptic gospels.

 

[Redemptionsong]

That is one of them. I do believe that it shows up in at least the three synoptic gospels.

The explanation is based on scriptural consistency.

In Genesis 5:1, it says, 'This is the book of the generations of Adam'.

In Matthew 1:1, it says, 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ'.

Adam's descendants are listed as 'generations' because each descendant is promised death in Adam [Genesis 2:17].

Jesus Christ is one generation because his life has no end. Jesus said, 'l am the resurrection, and the life' [John 11:25] This means that anyone 'in Christ' is of the body of Christ (just as Eve was made of Adam's rib). The generation of Christ, which ultimately includes all who enter into the kingdom of God, continues until the day of Christ's return in glory.