This is inspired by the other thread bravely put forward by IndigoChild5559.
Women should keep silent in the assembly?
I believe the conversation must begin with Deuteronomy 11.
[Deu 11:18-20 NIV] 18 Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 19 Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 20 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates,
Here is my understanding of this: Jewish fathers, not mothers, are commanded in the Torah to constantly teach the Torah to their children. (see Deuteronomy 11 reference below) This has implications for early Christian churches.
I interpret from Deuteronomy 11 that children are not to be taught the Torah by a stranger, by a mother, by a cousin, by a neighbor, by another child but by their Jewish father whether natural or an adopted Jewish father. It may be a priest, a grandfather, a tribal father or anyone who is considered their father in Judaism. I don't know all of the ways that is calculated, but fathers are required to teach their children. (I assume it can apply to priests since they refer to people as 'My son' as in 1 Samuel.) Possibly it extends to Levites performing temple service, and I believe it extends to masters and servants or could be the same thing. This could in fact be the origin of the term 'Rabbi', too. A father is to speak in many situations and in many ways, daily spending time with the children, teaching them. This is not any more optional than the other laws he's required to keep, but women are not so required. What is a 'Father' in Christianity?
What is the concept of a father in Christianity? Is it only that one Father in heaven? Is it whoever converts us, baptizes us? It seems confusing when comparing verses about it.
First ask what it is a father in Judaism, as discussed above. Then there is some background to consider what will mean in Christ. If nothing else you can at least expect an analogy. Another question is whether or not male and female is considered important in Christ? In Christianity we have this declaration by Paul in a letter that "In Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free." (Galatians 3:28) We also have Jesus own words that there is but one father of us all (Matthew 23:9). Given everything so far what are we to make of the following two epistles which talk about women remaining silent in the church:
To begin with, these are both Pauline letters. Perhaps they recognize women and men are the same in Christ "Neither male nor female" as Galatians claims? Maybe they don't. In that context why would the women be kept silent in the church, and what is that church, what is happening there which they are to be silent about?
That is a good start for the first post. I'll try to circle round and finish up with a second post, answering the questions that I have put forward.
Women should keep silent in the assembly?
I believe the conversation must begin with Deuteronomy 11.
[Deu 11:18-20 NIV] 18 Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 19 Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 20 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates,
Here is my understanding of this: Jewish fathers, not mothers, are commanded in the Torah to constantly teach the Torah to their children. (see Deuteronomy 11 reference below) This has implications for early Christian churches.
I interpret from Deuteronomy 11 that children are not to be taught the Torah by a stranger, by a mother, by a cousin, by a neighbor, by another child but by their Jewish father whether natural or an adopted Jewish father. It may be a priest, a grandfather, a tribal father or anyone who is considered their father in Judaism. I don't know all of the ways that is calculated, but fathers are required to teach their children. (I assume it can apply to priests since they refer to people as 'My son' as in 1 Samuel.) Possibly it extends to Levites performing temple service, and I believe it extends to masters and servants or could be the same thing. This could in fact be the origin of the term 'Rabbi', too. A father is to speak in many situations and in many ways, daily spending time with the children, teaching them. This is not any more optional than the other laws he's required to keep, but women are not so required. What is a 'Father' in Christianity?
[1Co 4:15 NIV] 15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
What is the concept of a father in Christianity? Is it only that one Father in heaven? Is it whoever converts us, baptizes us? It seems confusing when comparing verses about it.
First ask what it is a father in Judaism, as discussed above. Then there is some background to consider what will mean in Christ. If nothing else you can at least expect an analogy. Another question is whether or not male and female is considered important in Christ? In Christianity we have this declaration by Paul in a letter that "In Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free." (Galatians 3:28) We also have Jesus own words that there is but one father of us all (Matthew 23:9). Given everything so far what are we to make of the following two epistles which talk about women remaining silent in the church:
1Co 14:27-37 NIV 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace--as in all the congregations of the Lord's people. 34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
To begin with, these are both Pauline letters. Perhaps they recognize women and men are the same in Christ "Neither male nor female" as Galatians claims? Maybe they don't. In that context why would the women be kept silent in the church, and what is that church, what is happening there which they are to be silent about?
That is a good start for the first post. I'll try to circle round and finish up with a second post, answering the questions that I have put forward.
