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Would Dietrich Bonhoeffer say the kid who tried to kill Donald Turmp is a hero?

Redneck Mystic

Active Member
American politics on both sides sickens me, and maybe nuking D.C. when the president and vice president and cabinet and Senate and Congress and Supreme Court are there is the only way to try to start over.
The shooter’s passion was politics. he was a Republican, yet he tired to kill Trump after the Republicans in Congress gave him a free pass and then Republican judges started giving him free passes, and whose whose to say the shooter was the bad guy?
It doesn’t seem from what you have written here that you read anything about the shooter.

I ran ten times for local public office as an Independent, 2003-2018, and that’s how I learned just how screwed up politics is in America, which is where I live, and that’s what I speak to mostly, regarding politics. I opposed Trump in 2016. I opposed Hillary Clinton in 2016. I said they both should be locked up in adjoining cells. I said that many times, and I say it today. And I say we have the Democrats to thank for Donald Trump being president the first time, and around today, because they ran the candidate he could beat in 2016.

There is no fix for what ails American politics. But Biden and the Dems don’t remind of Hitler and his legions leading up to WWII, and Trump does, and if a kid saw what you could not see, or would not see, and he saw nobody was dealing with it, and he saw the Republicans in Congress and the Republican judges were letting it progress, then I understand why the kid did what he did, and God is his judge, for who can say God did not move the kid to do what he did? He was disturbed by local cops at the last moment, and perhaps that caused him to. missTurmp with the first shot. So, he fired more shots, knowing he was a dead man, but he was giving it his best effort.

If I were a MAGA, I would not get close to a Trump rally for the very reason someone might try to kill Tump and shoot me instead. Not Turmp is convinced God saved him that day, but what saved him that day was a demon that compromised the Secret Service that day, the local police, and the shooter, and the trajectory of the bullet that hit Trump’s ear instead of his head.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
You know he was not part of the plot to kill Hitler?

Based on the scholarship that went into his most recent biographies, yes, that is my view. If anyone knows something I missed/got wrong, please correct me.

Bonhoeffer was an incredibly brave man and committed Christian. A true inspiration in many ways.
 

Redneck Mystic

Active Member
I will take this to another level. Would Bonhoeffer and his accused fellow accomplices in the plot to kill Hitler say the kid who tried to kill Trump is a hero?
 

Tamino

Active Member
Alright. So.
I thought, well, let me check - if shouldn't be too difficult to find some Bonhoeffer quotes or original writings on the subject of killing potential tyrants...
This sent me down a rabbithole and I have been reading Bonhoeffer for the last 13 hours, with a bit of sleep in between... So thank you for that, I guess! I had never bothered to look at his theology and ethics beyond the superficial hero-worship that everyone in the German Lutheran church grows up with.

The most profound thing I found, and also what I think best represents the overall shape of his thoughts, is the below section. I present the German original and my own translation sentence-by-sentence. It's pretty abstract, but, well, those are his original words so I didn't dumb it down or add my own interpretation.
Source: Dietrich Bonhoeffer: Ethik
Excerpts from Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Ethik, hg. v. Ilse Tödt, Heinz Eduard Tödt, Ernst Feil und Clifford Green, DBW 6, München 1992
The (numbers in parentheses) represent page numbers in that book

"Der Verantwortliche ist an den konkreten Nächsten in seiner konkreten Wirklichkeit gewiesen.
The responsible person is turned towards his actual neighbour in his actual reality.

Sein Verhalten liegt nicht von vornherein und ein für allemal, also prinzipiell fest, sondern es entsteht mit der gegebenen Situation.
His action is not fixed from the start and for the future, according to a principle, but instead it arises with the given situation.

Nicht ein absolut Gutes soll verwirklicht werden, vielmehr gehört es zur Selbstbescheidung des verantwortlich Handelnden, ein relative Besseres dem relativ Schlechteren vorzuziehen
Not an absolute good is to be realized, rather it is part of a responsible agent's humility to prefer a relatively better action to a relatively worse

und zu erkennen, daß das absolut Gute gerade das Schlechteste sein kann
and to understand that the 'absolute good' might well be the most evil.

Der Verantwortliche hat der Wirklichkeit nicht ein fremdes Gesetz aufzuzwingen, vielmehr ist das Handeln des Verantwortlichen im echten Sinne 'wirklichkeitsgemäß'
The responsible person may not force a foreign law upon reality, rather the action of a resposible person is in a true sense 'according to reality'
(260)

"Wirklichkeitsgemäßes Handeln steht in der Begrenzung durch unsere Geschöpflichkeit... unsere Verantwortung ist nicht eine unendliche, sondern eine begrenzte
Action 'according to reality' is limited by our createdness... our responsibility is not infinite, but limited

Innerhalb dieser Grenzen freilich umfaßt sie das Ganze der Wirklichkeit. ... sie sieht es unter dem göttlichen Ja und Nein... nicht die Welt aus den Angeln zu heben, sondern am gegebenen Ort das im Blick auf die Wirklichkeit Notwendige zu tun, kann die Aufgabe sein
Inside of those limits however, it contains all of reality. It (=our responsibility) views it(=the whole) subordinate to the divine Yes and No... the duty may lie not in overturning the whole world, but instead in doing what is needed, in view of reality, in a given place.
(267)

Denn weil Gott in Christus Mensch wurde, dürfen und sollen wir in menschlicher Begrenztheit handeln
It's because God became Man in Christ that we may and should act in human limitation.

Weil aber Gott Mensch wurde, darum kann verantwortliches Handeln... das Urteil über das eigene Handeln ... niemals selbst vorweg nehmen, sondern muss es ganz an Gott ausliefern.
But since God became Man, responsible action can never presuppose judgement over this action, but must deliver it all to God.

Das letzte Nichtwissen des eigenen Guten und Bösen und damit das Angewiesensein auf Gnade gehört wesentlich zum verantwortlichen geschichtlichen Handeln.
In the end, not knowing your own the Good or Evil, and being dependent on Grace, is an essential feature of responsible historical action.

Der ideologisch Handelnde sieht ich in seiner Idee gerechtfertigt, der Verantwortliche legt sein Handeln in die Hände Gottes und lebt von Gottes Gnade und Gericht.
Someone who acts based on ideology feels justified in his idea, the responsible person gives his action into the hands of God and lives off God's grace and judgement.
(268)
 

Tamino

Active Member

Would Dietrich Bonhoeffer say the kid who tried to kill Donald Turmp is a hero?​

So in the light of what I quoted above, here's my interpretation - I believe he would say something like this:
"That kid" chose to take action, probably because he saw it as the best responsible action among several imperfect choices. Who am I to judge if this action was good or evil? I cannot even be sure if my own actions are good or evil, I can only deliver myself to God's grace and judgement, having done what I thought was needed."
 

Redneck Mystic

Active Member
Alright. So.
I thought, well, let me check - if shouldn't be too difficult to find some Bonhoeffer quotes or original writings on the subject of killing potential tyrants...
This sent me down a rabbithole and I have been reading Bonhoeffer for the last 13 hours, with a bit of sleep in between... So thank you for that, I guess! I had never bothered to look at his theology and ethics beyond the superficial hero-worship that everyone in the German Lutheran church grows up with.

The most profound thing I found, and also what I think best represents the overall shape of his thoughts, is the below section. I present the German original and my own translation sentence-by-sentence. It's pretty abstract, but, well, those are his original words so I didn't dumb it down or add my own interpretation.
Source: Dietrich Bonhoeffer: Ethik
Excerpts from Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Ethik, hg. v. Ilse Tödt, Heinz Eduard Tödt, Ernst Feil und Clifford Green, DBW 6, München 1992
The (numbers in parentheses) represent page numbers in that book

"Der Verantwortliche ist an den konkreten Nächsten in seiner konkreten Wirklichkeit gewiesen.
The responsible person is turned towards his actual neighbour in his actual reality.

Sein Verhalten liegt nicht von vornherein und ein für allemal, also prinzipiell fest, sondern es entsteht mit der gegebenen Situation.
His action is not fixed from the start and for the future, according to a principle, but instead it arises with the given situation.

Nicht ein absolut Gutes soll verwirklicht werden, vielmehr gehört es zur Selbstbescheidung des verantwortlich Handelnden, ein relative Besseres dem relativ Schlechteren vorzuziehen
Not an absolute good is to be realized, rather it is part of a responsible agent's humility to prefer a relatively better action to a relatively worse

und zu erkennen, daß das absolut Gute gerade das Schlechteste sein kann
and to understand that the 'absolute good' might well be the most evil.

Der Verantwortliche hat der Wirklichkeit nicht ein fremdes Gesetz aufzuzwingen, vielmehr ist das Handeln des Verantwortlichen im echten Sinne 'wirklichkeitsgemäß'
The responsible person may not force a foreign law upon reality, rather the action of a resposible person is in a true sense 'according to reality'
(260)

"Wirklichkeitsgemäßes Handeln steht in der Begrenzung durch unsere Geschöpflichkeit... unsere Verantwortung ist nicht eine unendliche, sondern eine begrenzte
Action 'according to reality' is limited by our createdness... our responsibility is not infinite, but limited

Innerhalb dieser Grenzen freilich umfaßt sie das Ganze der Wirklichkeit. ... sie sieht es unter dem göttlichen Ja und Nein... nicht die Welt aus den Angeln zu heben, sondern am gegebenen Ort das im Blick auf die Wirklichkeit Notwendige zu tun, kann die Aufgabe sein
Inside of those limits however, it contains all of reality. It (=our responsibility) views it(=the whole) subordinate to the divine Yes and No... the duty may lie not in overturning the whole world, but instead in doing what is needed, in view of reality, in a given place.
(267)

Denn weil Gott in Christus Mensch wurde, dürfen und sollen wir in menschlicher Begrenztheit handeln
It's because God became Man in Christ that we may and should act in human limitation.

Weil aber Gott Mensch wurde, darum kann verantwortliches Handeln... das Urteil über das eigene Handeln ... niemals selbst vorweg nehmen, sondern muss es ganz an Gott ausliefern.
But since God became Man, responsible action can never presuppose judgement over this action, but must deliver it all to God.

Das letzte Nichtwissen des eigenen Guten und Bösen und damit das Angewiesensein auf Gnade gehört wesentlich zum verantwortlichen geschichtlichen Handeln.
In the end, not knowing your own the Good or Evil, and being dependent on Grace, is an essential feature of responsible historical action.

Der ideologisch Handelnde sieht ich in seiner Idee gerechtfertigt, der Verantwortliche legt sein Handeln in die Hände Gottes und lebt von Gottes Gnade und Gericht.
Someone who acts based on ideology feels justified in his idea, the responsible person gives his action into the hands of God and lives off God's grace and judgement.
(268)
If, as I think you said, Bonoeffer was a member of the Resistance, he wanted to eliminate Hitler by any means possible, to stop the slaughter of Jews and Gypsies by Hitler’s henchmen. Bonhoeffer, wrote his books, before he had to face what he knew was mass demonic possession of his county. If you wish to read how that came about, it is described in The Spear of Destiny, by Trevor Ravenscroft, which today should be an international best seller, and that it isn’t, surely pleases the Devil.
 

Tamino

Active Member
If, as I think you said, Bonoeffer was a member of the Resistance, he wanted to eliminate Hitler by any means possible,
I think you have a somewhat simplistic view of the matter.
Bonhoeffer warned against Hitler already in 1933 and in the following years oscillated between times spend abroad and the possibility of remaining in exile, and his sense of duty and wanting to face the situation at home. Up until 1940 he was still trying to keep the Bekennende Kirche functional and trained young vicars, to form an opposition to the Nazis in society.
Only Nazi bans on public speaking and publishing ended that phase of his life, I think.
He got into contact with the resistance around Canaris in 1938 and was most active in 1941-1943 . But he was not planning assassinations, he was trying to build contacts with the allied forces while pretending to spy for Germany.
to stop the slaughter of Jews and Gypsies by Hitler’s henchmen.
...once he became aware of it, yes.
But those were the very last years of his life, and he spent the a substantial time while the shoa was happening already in prison (April 1943 onwards)
Bonhoeffer, wrote his books, before he had to face what he knew was mass demonic possession of his county.
I don't think he called it that, and most of the things he wrote were DURING Nazi rule - "Nachfolge" in 1935-37 and the u finished "Ethik" in 1940-1943. You must realize that he wasn't that old: he was in his late twenties when Hitler came into power.
If you wish to read how that came about, it is described in The Spear of Destiny, by Trevor Ravenscroft, which today should be an international best seller, and that it isn’t, surely pleases the Devil.
Seeing as I am a German native, I'll prefer sticking to the Bonhoeffer originals and the German scientific literature... But thank you for the book recommendation.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Consider Trump has spoken favorably of Adolph Hitler, and when he was married to Ivana, he studied a book of Hitler’s speeches.

Clearly Trump is a neo-fascist which is why he's chummy with other fascists.

BTW, "Strongmen" by Ruth Ben-Ghiat is an excellent book on fascism that includes Trump.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Clearly Trump is a neo-fascist which is why he's chummy with other fascists.

BTW, "Strongmen" by Ruth Ben-Ghiat is an excellent book on fascism that includes Trump.
Did Trump yell , Fascism Wins"! ?

I wanna see it!
 

Redneck Mystic

Active Member
I think you have a somewhat simplistic view of the matter.
Bonhoeffer warned against Hitler already in 1933 and in the following years oscillated between times spend abroad and the possibility of remaining in exile, and his sense of duty and wanting to face the situation at home. Up until 1940 he was still trying to keep the Bekennende Kirche functional and trained young vicars, to form an opposition to the Nazis in society.
Only Nazi bans on public speaking and publishing ended that phase of his life, I think.
He got into contact with the resistance around Canaris in 1938 and was most active in 1941-1943 . But he was not planning assassinations, he was trying to build contacts with the allied forces while pretending to spy for Germany.

...once he became aware of it, yes.
But those were the very last years of his life, and he spent the a substantial time while the shoa was happening already in prison (April 1943 onwards)

I don't think he called it that, and most of the things he wrote were DURING Nazi rule - "Nachfolge" in 1935-37 and the u finished "Ethik" in 1940-1943. You must realize that he wasn't that old: he was in his late twenties when Hitler came into power.

Seeing as I am a German native, I'll prefer sticking to the Bonhoeffer originals and the German scientific literature... But thank you for the book recommendation.
suit yourself
 
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