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Would liberals defend incest?

Sees

Dragonslayer
The support part I was odd-eyeing as well

I don't support anybody having sex or getting married that I don't even know...just don't oppose them. The either or stuff, black vs white, must choose a side and fight the other side, etc....it's almost always all bologna - much like conservative vs liberal is as well
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I basically abstain on politicization of incest. I've never once met someone that desires incest, never once seen someone argue in favor of incest, never seen news about a march on Washington of people that want incest marriage legalized, etc. Maybe there are people out there that advocate such things but I've not seen them. Most articles I've seen about incest being a problem have to do with child victims, which I'm obviously against. So I've not seen reason why incest of adults should be on my political radar at all.

I certainly don't think it's fair or ethical for people with significantly similar DNA to have children with each other, as that is basically a type of child abuse, since they're setting up a scenario with a very high likelihood of physical problems. But I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm against allowing genetically unfit children to enter society, like the wording of the OP. That would mean I'm against people with Down Syndrome and other genetic abnormalities that have nothing to do with incest from being accepted, which I'm not.

And if the idea of moral degradation of society is being brought up as a claim about the reality of the situation, I'd need to see a specific starting point and ending point along with a geographical location to be convinced. In other words that argument needs to be more tightly defined. Because history of the USA includes slavery of people of African descent, slaughter of Native Americans, barring women from the right to vote, a bloody civil war, etc. So to say that there is moral degradation- I'd certainly need to see a more precise description of that claim if it's relevant here.

One thing I remind myself about legalizing or criminalizing things is that if things are made illegal, then eventually, people have to be willing to back that law with physical force. Ultimately that's what law is, even if it's a minor law that starts with a fine or something, because refusal to adhere to it or answer minor penalties cascades up the ladder of severity until physical force is on the table as an option. Otherwise, it's a suggestion rather than a law. Am I willing to send force to stop closely-related consenting adults from being intimate with each other on their own time without the desire to have children? Not really, no.

The problem is how to enforce things, how to make laws that can be enforced like disallowing the existence of children with incest. Who to penalize, and how. A non-enforceable law is not worth much unless it's just a political statement.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I basically abstain on politicization of incest. I've never once met someone that desires incest, never once seen someone argue in favor of incest, never seen news about a march on Washington of people that want incest marriage legalized, etc. Maybe there are people out there that advocate such things but I've not seen them. Most articles I've seen about incest being a problem have to do with child victims, which I'm obviously against. So I've not seen reason why incest of adults should be on my political radar at all.

That's fair. This does remind me, though, that I did have a friend who wanted to have a relationship with her first cousin that was deeper than social taboos allowed. It was very difficult for her, and she unfortunately ended up with a man who was... not healthy for her instead. It's sad whenever cultural taboos prevent two people who obviously get along very well with each other from becoming lifemates. This makes it sad to me when governments get in the way of what would be positive relationships between any two adults.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I would however strongly discourage it as it's surely not psychologically healthy.

I wonder if you would have said the same thing about homosexuality if you lived a hundred years ago.

I think the OP is invoking the slippery slope theory.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I basically abstain on politicization of incest. I've never once met someone that desires incest, never once seen someone argue in favor of incest, never seen news about a march on Washington of people that want incest marriage legalized, etc. Maybe there are people out there that advocate such things but I've not seen them. Most articles I've seen about incest being a problem have to do with child victims, which I'm obviously against. So I've not seen reason why incest of adults should be on my political radar at all.

Obviously you don't watch Jerry Springer much:shrug:

:D
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
As I'm socially liberal, I hope I'm included :)

I always thought that inbreeding raised the chances of genetic disorders. While there's probably not going to be too much incest activities even if it were legalized, even just a few activities can increase the chances of spreading genetic malfunctions very quickly, and I'm assuming most of these malfunctions are inferior to our normally transmitted genes.

While that is a reason against it, I'd not be against it, however I wouldn't support it in any case either.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I basically abstain on politicization of incest. I've never once met someone that desires incest, never once seen someone argue in favor of incest, never seen news about a march on Washington of people that want incest marriage legalized, etc. Maybe there are people out there that advocate such things but I've not seen them. Most articles I've seen about incest being a problem have to do with child victims, which I'm obviously against. So I've not seen reason why incest of adults should be on my political radar at all.

Do you consider first-cousin relationships to be incestuous? That is, when you say that you've never seen someone desire or argue in favor of incest, does that imply you've never seen someone desire or argue in favor of first-cousin relationships?

The reason I'm asking is that first-cousin marriage is considered perfectly acceptable in more than one society, and there are many people who would definitely support it and argue in favor of allowing it if any proposals to ban it were made in those places. But as far as I know, there are also other cultures that consider it to be incest and legally forbid it as a result. So the culture-based differences between the views of what constitutes incest in this case could lead to it being a political issue, I think.
 
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Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you consider first-cousin relationships to be incestuous? That is, when you say that you've never seen someone desire or argue in favor of incest, does that imply you've never seen someone desire or argue in favor of first-cousin relationships?

The reason I'm asking is that first-cousin marriage is considered perfectly acceptable in more than one society, and there are many people who would definitely support it and argue in favor of allowing it if any proposals to ban it were made in those places. But as far as I know, there are also other cultures that consider it to be incest and legally forbid it as a result. So the culture-based differences between the views of what constitutes incest in this case could lead to it being a political issue, I think.
For the question of whether I think first-cousin relationships are incestuous, I think there's a spectrum there rather than a yes/no thing. The OP was about parent/child and sibling/sibling relationships, so that's what I was referring to. I'd also consider close incest to be things like a kid with her or his aunt or uncle, or a child with her or his grandparent, or something like that. That's all very close incest.

First cousins are a bit of a different matter. They have 12.5% genetic overlap, with the other 87.5% being different. Statistically, children of first cousin relationships are twice as likely to have a birth defect, but it's still a very small chance. Historically, first and second cousin marriages were common, and have been argued to have been the majority of all marriages, actually. That sort of thing happens in small villages, tribes, among some nobility, etc. It's been a common thing in human history. In the Middle east and parts of Africa, cousin-marriage is extremely common. In a family tree, an occasional first cousin union doesn't really have a significant impact on genetic quality, but if unions of cousins start intermarrying unions of cousins, like basically if there are too many first cousin unions in a family tree, it can negatively impact genetic quality. So I view it as a bit of a taboo (it's legal in my state), but I guess the answer is that it's technically okay in moderation? I wouldn't go after it legally.

Second cousins only share 6.25% genetic overlap. There are first cousins once removed, that have genetic overlap between that of first and second cousins, and then there are first cousins twice removed, that have genetic overlap similar to second cousins. Rather little, in other words.

For the sake of genetic health I wouldn't encourage cousin-reproduction but realistically, if first cousin reproduction happens sometimes it's not a big deal, and second cousin reproduction is basically a non-issue. So I wouldn't commit resources to make it illegal.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
I am seriously having great problems reading this thread.

I mean, this is a joke, right? Some of you people actually are for this? This might just be the most depressing thing I've heard for a while.

Society and societal functions are naught but social manifestations of evolutionary structures. Anything that goes against the evolutionary cause will most certainly bring about the demise of any society.

Freedom is not absolute goodness, and I hope and pray for the day when people see this and see the error in their ways.

It is alarming that we even have to explain why it is not a right thing to do - let alone that there are people advocating it. All this, to me, tells that our society has sunken into deep levels of irrationality.
 
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Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
Society and societal functions are naught but social manifestations of evolutionary structures. Anything that goes against the evolutionary cause will most certainly bring about the demise of any society.
Vaccines, insulin, wisdom teeth, and homosexuality.

The human race is still going strong.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
Vaccines, insulin, wisdom teeth, and homosexuality.

The human race is still going strong.

I fear you are failing to see the greater implication here.

A child exists because mommy and daddy got married and felt love. You do realise, that for offspring to go with his/her parent, that bond between the parents must be broken? Honestly, I feel sickening just to think of it - imagine my future child getting it on with my future wife. I suppose...we are in situation far worse than I had ever imagined.

How effed up can one get? A marriage is between two people of different kin. They leave behind offsprings to repeat the process. That is our existential purpose, nothing else. I get it, it is too simple for some of you, thus why you have the urge to make it more complex and about diversity & whatnot. But in the end of the day, you have just failed the simplest possible purpose there is.
Pure reproduction.

Can't you see the mistrust it places within the family unit?? The tension, the unnatural competition?? A father and son should not compete for mother or sister/daugheter, nor vice versa! Not everyone should be a viable mate, that is against any pragmatic organisation of any society.

Hoooly *****. Really. If western society has come to this, it really deserves to die off. We only serve one very simple purpose on this Earth, and to fail that amounts to a great sin.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
So, I must admit, this thread was surprising to me too. I honestly was curious how people who are pro-homosexuality due to allowing consenting adults do their thing (as I am) would reconcile this stance with incest.

It does seem like most people are pretty consistent: As long as it's between consenting adults, it's not our business. I totally admit to an "ick" reaction to such a relationship, particularly (grand)parent-(grand)child. Is "ick" enough to prevent such a relationship? I cannot say yes, and be consistent with my other stance.

But, there is a difference between a relationship and governmentally-approved official unions, like marriage or civil union. If people in incestuous relationships demanded to be recognized legally, would you vote yes for that amendment?
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
A child exists because mommy and daddy got married and felt love.
Wow, what century are you in? Do they even have internet back then?

How effed up can one get? A marriage is between two people of different kin. They leave behind offsprings to repeat the process. That is our existential purpose, nothing else.
I agree. Your vision of the world is rather effed up.

We only serve one very simple purpose on this Earth, and to fail that amounts to a great sin.
Got it. Hump or die, and god forbid love make it into the equation.

Oh, and kill the queers.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am seriously having great problems reading this thread.

I mean, this is a joke, right? Some of you people actually are for this? This might just be the most depressing thing I've heard for a while.
Did you read the same thread I did? Maybe we didn't read the same thread.

I could have missed one perhaps, but I didn't see anyone in the thread support reproduction of close-incest relationships like sibling/sibling or parent/child. Could you point to where I've missed someone supporting that?
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
Wow, what century are you in? Do they even have internet back then?

I agree. Your vision of the world is rather effed up.

Got it. Hump or die, and god forbid love make it into the equation.

Oh, and kill the queers.

It is the truth. It is always funny to me, how liberal americans mock creationists (i am firmly evolutionist myself, of course) while they completely miss the point of evolution. Its mathematics and it is in its simplicity beautiful. There can be only one line of true succession, and only through one method - that is the evolutionary method. I mean creationism is silly as hell, but its nowhere near the effed-upness of that you advocate.

I thought our society was in bad shape, but I never quite figured it was this bad.

Its not just about the reproduction in incest, its also about the quality of the relations involved - a parent to child. There is nothing sexual about that, and if you perceive sexuality there, you are looking at it the wrong way.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
So, I must admit, this thread was surprising to me too. I honestly was curious how people who are pro-homosexuality due to allowing consenting adults do their thing (as I am) would reconcile this stance with incest.

It does seem like most people are pretty consistent: As long as it's between consenting adults, it's not our business. I totally admit to an "ick" reaction to such a relationship, particularly (grand)parent-(grand)child. Is "ick" enough to prevent such a relationship? I cannot say yes, and be consistent with my other stance.

But, there is a difference between a relationship and governmentally-approved official unions, like marriage or civil union. If people in incestuous relationships demanded to be recognized legally, would you vote yes for that amendment?

Never. Such relationships would be highly damaging to the societal dynamics, which are rooted in trust-relations between people, how individual members perceive each other and how family units (the unit by which the society "sheds its skin") function. The more variety is brought to the spectrum, the more disorientated the Whole becomes - the more disorientated the Whole becomes, the less effective it will be. After enough expansion it will fall apart - as has been the case of every single Empire in history as they entered their amoral final stages.

People want to justify their own ways under the concept of love, but pervasion is no love. This is entering some really dangerous territory, which ultimately will rise to challenge the integrity of human race. After all, its existence hangs on a thread every second - we do not need any more negative variables to threaten that existence.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Never. Such relationships would be highly damaging to the societal dynamics, which are rooted in trust-relations between people, how individual members perceive each other and how family units (the unit by which the society "sheds its skin") function. The more variety is brought to the spectrum, the more disorientated the Whole becomes - the more disorientated the Whole becomes, the less effective it will be. After enough expansion it will fall apart - as has been the case of every single Empire in history as they entered their amoral final stages.

People want to justify their own ways under the concept of love, but pervasion is no love. This is entering some really dangerous territory, which ultimately will rise to challenge the integrity of human race. After all, its existence hangs on a thread every second - we do not need any more negative variables to threaten that existence.
I really don't think that the few people who'd be into incestuous relationships are going to threaten our existence.
 
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