If you can't understand it, how do you know and/or believe that that's not how god communicate with them?
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Would/Should God communicate directly to everyone in the world?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
If you can't understand it, how do you know and/or believe that that's not how god communicate with them?
Then god wouldn't be moral if he doesn't have moral obligations. We can only base his morality off of our own because that's the only sense of morality that we understand. And I'm not talking about relative or subjective morality. If you believe that he only will and chooses according to his knowledge and wisdom, then how do you know that his will and choices are moral or not.
But a child with a sense of morality does know if a parent is being moral or immoral, eventhough the child cannot dictate their parent(s) actions.
If god communicate with everyone, that does not mean that there is no free will. It's irrational if one thinks that just because he communicate with everyone that there is no longer free will. The actions of person A does not necassarly mean that person B has no free will to choose their own action independently of person A.
I already told you: I don't see why a god would be interested in communicating at all.
I also said that we could try taking as given that he wants to get a message to certain people, but I'll need you to tell me who we should assume.
I get that this thread is a veiled attempt to proselytize for your religion, so should I just assume the Baha'i belief on this: that God has a message for all of humanity?
I didn't say he was incapable necessarily; my point was that if God used intermediaries, this would be a sign that he was incapable of communicating directly with all the people he wanted to communicate to.
No, I assume that God will do as he pleases, regardless of whether people like it.
I'm also assuming for argument's sake - as I mentioned earlier - that God wants to communicate. Now... we can take two approaches here:
- continue with this assumption, which means that if God has a message he wants to communicate to you, he'll do it, presumably by the most efficient, effective, and reliable method available... or,
- set aside this assumption, which will mean thay this God won't have any messages for you at all.
Which is it?
The only reason I can think of for that would be if God had a message for every human being on Earth.
Again: we're assuming that God wants to communicate for some reason. I'm taking this to mean that he wants his message - whatever it is - recognized as from him by the recipient and understood, which is why I'm taking direct communication as the most obvious method. If you want to argue that God wants to introduce unreliability and human limitation into the mix by communicating indirectly, then I invite you to explain why God would value these things.
Well, hang on. Are we still trying to maintain the pretense that this thread isn't about proselytizing for the Baha'i faith? Because if we are, then you'd have to justify why we should assume that your eternal, solitary space alien has any of those attributes.
... and I'm not the only one ... must be at least 200 'debate' threads by now
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
IF God exists (emphasis on "if" there), then BASED ON CURRENT EVIDENCE at our disposal, I would say that NO, God would not communicate directly to everyone. All current evidence points to a God who very VERY much wants to keep his existence a big secret. Communicating through a select few, giving certain people personal experiences and not others, making the Earth appear billions of years old, etc.
It is unreasonable because, BASED ON CURRENT EVIDENCE, God does not want to communicate directly to everyone. Whatever plan He's got going on, communicating directly to everyone is NOT a part of it. If He exists, He has decided to allow there to be a massive amount of confusion over what His nature is, which version of "God" humans have correct, which religion even has the correct "God" attributed to it, He allowed many multiple texts to be written, all different within different belief systems, many containing multiple Gods, He's not stepped in to clarify any of it, or if He has, then He's done so MULTIPLE TIMES, THROUGH MULTIPLE DIFFERENT PEOPLE WHO ALSO REPORT DIFFERENT "UPDATES."
Rational people should stick to the evidence. And again, BASED ON CURRENT EVIDENCE, God is not going to communicate directly to everyone. Still not a bad question to wonder WHY that's the case though. Don't have to have an expectation necessarily - just simply asking a question: WHY DOESN'T GOD COMMUNICATE DIRECTLY TO EVERYONE? Especially given many theists' framing of the situation as "God cares about everyone." So, the question can further be simplified: "If He cares about everyone, then why does God not grant the same opportunity to believe via evidence to everyone?" And the utterly confounding nature of that question has led some theists (especially recently I have noticed) to come to the conclusion, and begin to preach that God DOESN'T care about everyone to the same degree. That there are "chosen people," and some people that are just there to get crapped on by the system, apparently (Go chaff!). It's all rather comedic... because those same people will adamantly state that no one can know the mind of God - and yet there they are, telling you they do. Good for a laugh.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
1 Kings 19:11-12 says, "And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice." I don't believe God often communicates to anyone (even His prophets) in audible speech, but I do believe His speaks to ordinary people in "a still small voice."
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Since, according to nearly every Theist I've met, this "god" not only expects worship from it's creation, but absolutely demands it, Or Else?
That's some serious consequences for not giving it what it wants/demands. Dire consequences.
Now. Unless this "god" is supremely EVIL?
1, 2 and 3 are given-- it is now responsible for not being an effective communicator.
100% of the FAIL is now firmly on this "god", none on anyone who is not convinced.
It's a "god", remember? It automatically knows what would be needed to be convincing to everyone. Any failure is now 100% god's.
Anyone not being convinced is because this infinitely powerful being WILLS IT SO.
IF these people are subsequently punished? This "god" is automatically EVIL as a result: it created beings for the single purpose to be TORTURED (punished) by this "god".
EVIL.
They are parasols, have you any idea how much damage the sun can do?
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
If we're discussing this in the context of why having prophets/messengers or not, yeah, I think it would make more sense if God talked to everyone individually. The reason is quite simple. Imagine if you know quantum mechanics and you want to teach a class. But instead of you teaching the class, you pick someone who doesn't understand quantum mechanics and try to teach him quickly and give him some simple overview, he/she kind'a understand, but not fully, and then goes to teach the class. Will the class have the proper understanding of quantum mechanics? Most likely not. If you want them to fully understand it, it's better that you do it yourself, direct to the students.
But then let's say the information you want to give them is life or death. If anything they misunderstand will kill them, it's even more important they get the correct and full information, and not information filtered and interpreted by a single person. I think it's reasonable, even rational, to believe that God would talk to everyone equally, and having prophets is a bad way of doing it.
We've met different theists although there are certainly ones of the kind you decry.
What I've observed over time is the wrathful, vengeful image of God is fading and a more loving, accepting image getting stronger.
Since most people create their own version of God, this creation should be able to talk to anyone. If folks have created a God which doesn't communicate, they can simply create one who does.
Doesn't matter whether there is a God or not. Humans create Gods for themselves that can exist autonomously in their subconscious. Put enough belief into this God communicating directly with you and that's what'll happen. You don't believe God will communicate directly with you, guess what, that's what will happen too.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree most everything else you said, but I am picking this out to respond to since it is the most pertinent to the subject in the OP and I have time limitations with all the posts that are coming in.
I could not agree more that it is a test, a way to separate the wheat from the chaff. I agree that in the future everyone will know that God exists.
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154
In the future, people won't *just believe*, they will know. You and I know now, and others also know, but most people are lost and confused, and even if they say they believe they only pay lip service to God and their religion. It will not always be that way though.
Why would God communicate directly to everyone on earth when most of those people are unworthy? Why would God be obligated to communicate to unworthy people just because they want to hear from God? No, They rejected God's prophets so God is not going to come and speak to them directly.
Trailblazer said: Do you think that *rational people* would expect God to communicate directly to everyone?
No rational person would expect anything from God that God has not already provided. You pretty much covered that when you said:
Then when the people here have refused to acknowledge the religious text, they murder the prophets, and ignore God in their own conscious; the idea they're down here as they don't listen in the first place, and to then ask this question isn't a rational question according to the world's religious texts.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I was not saying it is egocentric to be One with the Source, I was saying it is egocentric to expect the Source to provide curb service (direct communication to everyone) just so we won't have to go into the restaurant and eat with everyone else (read the religious texts God has provided).
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
From what I know of you, you have not been bad at all...I'm quite miffed that S/He hasn't done so yet - I haven't been bad all my life.
We are all bad sometimes but bad is a relative term.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
If, as you assert, god is loving? Then? It is even more Important for said god to eliminate all possibility of people not being convinced.
Or else? It simply does not matter in the least either way, in the end.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
A more accurate statement would be "if god exists and needs people to believe in it, the sensible thing to do would be to make its presence clear to all in a way that is irrefutable."
But God does not need everyone to believe in Him, in fact God does not need anyone to believe in Him, because God has no needs, since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining. It is humans who have needs, so we are the ones who need God. God has no need for us and God could dispense with all of us in a heartbeat, if God did not love us.
So the upshot is that God is not going to communicate directly with everyone because God has no need to convince anyone that He exists. People can either choose to accept the evidence God has provided, which is scriptures of the various religions, or that can be atheists. It is no skin off God's nose as God remains in His Own High Place.
Your frame-of-reference is that God is separate from you. And that God cares if you believe or don't believe.
That's not mine. Mine is that belief is not really important unless it motivates someone to change their actions to be more loving. Mine is also that God prefers atheists who act honorably to hypocritical believers who don't put their beliefs into action.
Of course. Rational people do not necessarily believe self appointed middle men.
Ciao
- viole
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Since most people in the world believe in God and most of those people believe in God because of a religion:
84 percent of the world population has a faith.
I think it was good enough, because there is no reason to think that everyone has to believe in God. I think that will happen in the future, but the future in not here yet.
It is working for 55% of the world population who are Jews, Christians, Muslims and Baha'is. Most of the other people have a different religion like Buddhism or Hinduism so they have no reason to switch.
It makes logical sense that it is the best way because it is the only way we know of that God has ever communicated to humans and if God is All-Knowing and All-Wise it has to be the best way.
The Essence (intrinsic nature of God) is beyond human understanding but we can know some Attributes of God and the Will of God through what the Messengers reveal. That is the main reason why God sends them.
And that is quite proper. You should not bother to use concepts (such as "God") which you have no idea of how to use or handle.
You are correct. God has no need to be recognized and any bad things that might lie ahead can be communicated through Messengers.
All people are equally deserving but they have to work for what they deserve. If people want to believe in God they have to search and make a sincere effort to believe. It is not justice that everyone gets a free ride. That is 'one reason' why direct communication to everyone is not a method God uses.