Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night

[Koldo]

Actually I think my forefathers where pretty immoral, depending on how far back in time you go.

I guess the same is true to pretty much ... everyone.

 

[Kerr]

I guess the same is true to pretty much ... everyone.

Pretty much, yeah. And in a few centuries our decendants might think the same about us.

 

[Poeticus]

Well in a world where people think that the start of puberty makes a girl a woman...I'm not keen to say people should od anything...smh.

We can most certainly do something about it. But, let me just state that this is an Internet forum - I doubt someone from here will get on a plane and fly out to Yemen and provide education to rural Yemenites regarding puberty. And, I doubt if anyone here on RF has actually been to Yemen.

Granted is the fact that this act was horrendous, but it served as a wonderful platform for Islamophobia, and the sentiment that "Islam is evil" is riddled throughout this thread indirectly where many posts intertwine the word "culture" with "religion" to an unnecessary extent. This only devalues the credibility of the well-rounded forum that is RF.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

We can most certainly do something about it. But, let me just state that this is an Internet forum - I doubt someone from here will get on a plane and fly out to Yemen and provide education to rural Yemenites regarding puberty. And, I doubt if anyone here on RF has actually been to Yemen.

Granted is the fact that this act was horrendous, but it served as a wonderful platform for Islamophobia, and the sentiment that "Islam is evil" is riddled throughout this thread indirectly where many posts intertwine the word "culture" with "religion" to an unnecessary extent. This only devalues the credibility of the well-rounded forum that is RF.

Well something about religion gives people the beliefs that they can do this. Not the core belief structure, but the rituals and fanfare that surround them. So I find it hard to say that "Person who does X is not a follower of Y" Simply because they are getting it from somewhere. Regardless if that was originally the intent

 

[Poeticus]

Well something about religion gives people the beliefs that they can do this. Not the core belief structure, but the rituals and fanfare that surround them. So I find it hard to say that "Person who does X is not a follower of Y" Simply because they are getting it from somewhere. Regardless if that was originally the intent

Getting it from where? The Quran?

 

[FearGod]

That's what your source says.

He is questioning your english skills because you didn't comprehend what the site actually says.

Yes my source says so and he said my source isn't credible but then blaming my english skills for not understanding.

The phrase is very simple it says in other words

puberty is the turning point from childhood to womanhood

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes my source says so and he said my source isn't credible but then blaming my english skills for not understanding.

The phrase is very simple it says in other words

puberty is the turning point from childhood to womanhood

I guess you will just have to accept that people will not take a website's statement (correctly interpreted or otherwise) that a 8-years old girl should be considered a woman if it turns out that she has menstruated already.

 

[farouk]

Peace
For the ignorant let me make certain aspects clear.
Firstly
Islam does not allow marriage to under aged children.
Second
Islam does not permit forced marriages for anyone.
Third
All marriages must be by mutual consent.The bride must be represented by an male adult at the time of the ceremony and there must be 2 withness present at the time when she gives her consent.
Fourth
The marriage is legal hence it must be a written contract with witnesses.
Fifth
A dowry must be given by men(bridegroom) to women(bride).
Sixth
Marriage proposals can be offered by parents on behalf of their children, or through second parties selected by individuals, or can be made directly by individuals. But there is nothing binding without full acceptance of both people.
Seventh
there can be no coercion nor force nor intimidation to obtain compliance in marriage. Women must not be subjected to oppression nor deprived of their wealth (dowry)in any way.
Eight
In Islam men must financially provide for all the needs of the woman and family, while the woman is not obliged to give even one cent for the man or the family.
Nine
not sure if i left any important point out but if i did then fellow muslims can add here.
Finally.
I am married to my wife for 56 years and we both enjoyed life to the full.I have fulfilled my 8 points above and now i am preparing for my grave.Its time for me to meet my creator.There is no way that i am going to change my way of life nor will the rest of my family.
The Noble Quraan.
"O you who have believed, if you obey those who disbelieve, they will turn you back on your heels, and you will become losers.But Allah is your protector, and He is the best of helpers."
Hoping you respectfully understand my point of view from the above verse.
Peace and God be with you all.
Farouk

 

[Levite]

So, for all those folks who think we can justify our behavior because of what our predecessors and ancestors did, should we also ignore germ theory because our ancestors thought disease was caused by an imbalance of bodily humors? Should we ignore practical applications of electricity because our ancestors thought lighting was the wrathful weapon of the gods? Should we disdain the use of automobiles because horses were good enough for our ancestors?

In Jewish tradition, we have various teachings that help us understand that as our knowledge and wisdom grows and evolves, our re-examination of what we may think about both Torah and the world as it is understood through secular knowledge must be re-evaluated, as new ideas require different answers sometimes, and what seemed clear before may be shown to be more complex. I find it hard to believe that Islam lacks such processes, and I would be willing to wager actual coinage that there are, in fact, many Muslims who do not claim that Islamic tradition requires them to embrace the brutal and outmoded ethics of a thousand years past.

I think this argument that has been raised, that what our ancestors did was good and we should replicate it, whereas what we do is bad, and should be criticized, is a wholly spurious and insupportable argument. And I would be willing to bet that there are Muslims who would concur with me.

 

[Koldo]

The phrase is very simple it says in other words

puberty is the turning point from childhood to womanhood

Not exactly what it says.

It doesn't say that once the child hits puberty she becomes a woman.

Puberty is a passage to womanhood. That is what it says.
Meaning that: once a child is past it, it becomes a woman.

 

[LuisDantas]

(...)
Firstly
Islam does not allow marriage to under aged children.

(...)

Sixth
Marriage proposals can be offered by parents on behalf of their children, (...)

This may use some clarification, don't you agree?

 

[outhouse]

For the ignorant let me make certain aspects clear.
Firstly



All marriages must be by mutual consent.

In civilized countries, children cannot give consent.


Your dancing around making excuses for primitive behviour instead of standing up and saying we have changed.

But I really dont think you see any error in this

 

[Assad91]

Ugh, fine - be that way.

There are Muslims who view Mohammad as the most perfect of Humans, and thus base (or aspire to base) their own lifestyles and actions off of him. They can gain "insight" into Mohammad's life based off the Hadiths, which (regardless of whether they're considered completely accurate or fabricated) document his apparent lifestyle.

Prophet Muhammad(sawa) was infallibile and he was perfect, like all the Prophets(as).

But a hadith being authentic or not IS a big deal. Why you brush it off and say such isn't a big deal, shows your incompetence in this subject of Islamic studies. There are people who go to schools for years, just to learn the science of hadith and authenticating them.

So no, you are wrong.

Ergo, some Muslims reject the hadiths as fabricated, whilst others don't and also base their own lifestyle on the "documented" actions of Mohammad.

Yes we do. But again, your approach and preaching on this subject is severly flawed.

Hadith is not sacred. And it is not all taken at the same level and every other one.

Anyways, again I am going too far away from the original subject of this thread. Ultimately what I am saying here (and in all my other posts in this thread) is that religion does have a part to play in tragedies like this.

At least base your argument on correct info instead of spreading bs

 

[Assad91]

One argued that "marrying" *edited* ten year olds is perfectly healthy and normal, that HE "married" *edited* a ten year old child at the age of twenty and there was nothing wrong with it, and he was planning to have his own daughters sold to grown men *edited* at a similar age. Words absolutely fail me. I simply can not express the depth of my horror and disgust.

I could've sworn I mentioned that I knew that.

Then a few of the Muslims here deflected criticism. This is often mistaken for defending something. That's when people address criticism of Islam by saying something totally silly and irrelevant, along the lines of "well, in AMERICA, women go around showing their LEGS to everybody". I mean, come on.
\

And how many is "few" and how many Muslims are in the world? I am completly shocked that some of you self-rightous open minded peeps are judging all of Muslims because one came here and said he married a 10 year old, and another said it was messed up, but then deflected.

 

[Assad91]

And I am still wondering when Outhouse will finally come and say just how many Muslims here defended child marraige.

Especially after writing

Again one only has to read this thread and see how many are defending the practice to notice they believe heart and soul, it is aceptable behaviour they find justifiable.

Making it sound like a lot of Muslims here defended the practice.

Yet I have been following this giant circle jerk of a thread, and haven't really noticed any justification for such a stupid thing to say.

 

[Satnaam]

One hadith can be wrong, but many different sources testify to the fact that Muhammad was a morally corrupt person. Be it the massacre of tribes, deception or rape, nothing was unknown to Muhammad.

 

[outhouse]

Making it sound like a lot of Muslims here defended the practice.

.

instead of trying to solve the problem

Your only trying to defend a religion that in places and primitive cultures, still find this acceptable.


Example, someone claimed 8 year old children are women. [facepalm] which I find to be pretty ignorant and sick.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

So, I come back to :
1. 'well you have gays in your country' seriously? do you actually think that this in some way establishes moral equivelency let alone superiority? Do you understand why people think that informed consent is important?

2. 'pedophiles exist in your country' & 'you used to do it' so dont judge! That it was once practiced I agree, we have managed to make some improvements over the years, but that doesnt change history - that we commonly engaged in contemptable practices (such as 'marrying' children, beating our wives, killing people based on their religion), but if it happened now? We do judge and where we throw them in jail. Its bad that it happens, its worse when condoned.

3. 'women can have menstral cycles at _' so they are ready! Actually girls can have children earlier still, List of youngest birth mothers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (though I find the first one unreliable given the date of the record), bodies develop at different rates due to medical conditions and underlying physiological predispositions, the fact that their reproductive organs have developed to such an extent (assuming that she had regular monthly flows, which often take years to develop to such an extent) does not indicate for example that their hips have or any of the numerous other physical, emotional and intellecutal faculties required to be ready for childbirth or child rearing (or those for marriage) have developed sufficiently, she is not a 'woman', she is a developing girl.

But this one merits a line by line response.

snip

1. You have stated that you married a 10 year old. Either this means that in Islam, an 'age' has been specified which is far below that of the average girl who has undergone (not merely commenced) puberty to prepare her physiology to bear children, nor the age at which most girls have developed emotionally an intellectually (particularly if not provided with appropriate access to education) OR else it means that your actions are a contravention of Islamic principles.

2. Good to hear.

3. The combination with 6 is directly illogical, as this permits the abridgement of consent. Moreoever as has been mentioned in this thread more than once it is informed consent that is important, if one is not informed then one is not truly consenting, but perhaps the two are synonymous for you? Ill give you the benefit of the doubt.

4. Pretty standard fair

5. Rather outdated, but not reprehensible at all - this remains hers correct? Not under the control of her husband or her family? Because a prideprice is very different, and very very very common in those places where child 'marriage' is allowed.

6. Facilitate the direct abridgement of consent (yes I note you mentioned it specifically), also facilitates undue influence

7. Good to hear. I assume that extends to 'marry him or I'll hit you again' or 'marry him or your out on the street (oh but you can collect your dowry in thirty years, if you survive)' and of course alleviates the child's duty to obey her parents

8. Rather outdated, but other than that

No one expects you to change your life now, you can't. And while it seems you were very happy with your lot in life (and I assume your wife acts in such a way that you believe her to be happy - after resigning herself to her lot) that doesnt change what you did to a 10 year old, nor what you arranged for your own children, which is reprehensible.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

A response to the debate about consent and maturity. From an actual victims perspective.
Trigger warning-abuse

http://m.xojane.com/issues/stacey-rambold-cherice-morales

 

[Assad91]

Im proud to have muslim family but I dont go around trying to defend it from those who have credible criticism. But for some reason you are.

You should read my post more often, especially before you try and accuse me of such. **** off.

And your lack of answering a simple question while painting the majority of Muslim posters here as pro-child marriage is still unjustified and pathetic.