Yeshua's death

[Sariel]

I'm curious if Messianics have any significant views about the actual death of Yeshua. Is the main emphasis solely put on his life and teachings or is there some important role his death served?

 

[Zardoz]

I'm curious if Messianics have any significant views about the actual death of Yeshua. Is the main emphasis solely put on his life and teachings or is there some important role his death served?

Speaking for myself only, I'd have to say 'life and teachings'; with his death the culmination of his role as Messiah ben Yosef but nothing more significant.

Shalom and welcome to RF!

 

[anotherglenda]

I'm curious if Messianics have any significant views about the actual death of Yeshua. Is the main emphasis solely put on his life and teachings or is there some important role his death served?

For me the whole focus is his life ... he spoke and lived the good news of real life, which is daily self-sacrifice (including the day of his death).
Yeshua gave his LIFE for us ... every day.
God does not accept human death as a sacrifice.
If death was acceptable, then Yeshua could have simply died without daily selflessly living & sharing & demonstrating God's life-giving message.
His daily self-sacrificing LIFE was the ultimate sacrifice
Lk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (H5345 a BREATHING creature) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

If we are sheep who follow the good shepherd, then we have already passed from empty selfish existence (death) into life right now. We are to focus on life this day rather than concern ourselves about what the future (including death) may hold
Mt 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

The death of Yeshua was him sacrificing himself for his friends
Joh 18:7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: 9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

God uses special righteous people He chooses to guide and pray and intercede for others, eg Moses, priests, prophets ... and this group includes Yeshua
To embrace Yeshua as a prophet or righteous man suffices:
Mt 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

I believe that, on our repentance, God forgives our previous ignorant sinful selfish lives for the sake of righteous Yeshua's interceding prayer: Lk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The message of Yeshua was not about pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die ... it was about real life right now.
God always puts life or death before us to choose from. The focus I choose is life. Jesus gave his LIFE for me ... every day ... as a shepherd leading a sheep. God desires and accepts daily sacrifice of sheep.

A wise priest considered sacrificing Jesus should appease Rome, and thus save God's people from interfering Roman domination, since Roman authorites had wanted Yeshua's death from the day he was born, since he was a danger to their authority (Joh 11:48-52). Jesus suffered Roman torture & crucifixion and the treason crime label as 'King of the Jews'. Jesus saved me from Romansim!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm curious if Messianics have any significant views about the actual death of Yeshua. Is the main emphasis solely put on his life and teachings or is there some important role his death served?

He is IMHO both scapegoats of the high sacrifice, the one who died and the one who lived. "He died for our sin and rose for our justification... it pleased Ha Shem to make His life an offering... He was with a rich man (fulfilling prophecy) in His tomb..."

 

[Sariel]

He is IMHO both scapegoats of the high sacrifice, the one who died and the one who lived. "He died for our sin and rose for our justification... it pleased Ha Shem to make His life an offering... He was with a rich man (fulfilling prophecy) in His tomb..."

Might I ask how that works in your explanation? For obvious reasons, I'm always a bit cautious of comparing Yeshua to sacrifices since it can be easily construed as a human sacrifice. I view him as a suffering Tzaddik who bore the sins of others.

 

[wizanda]

Is the main emphasis solely put on his life and teachings or is there some important role his death served?

Zechariah 11 was fulfilled by them paying 30 pieces of silver for his head, and putting it in the potters field in the house of Israel; thus disannulling the covenant, so that the 2nd temple was destroyed and the people kicked out of the land.

 

[Zardoz]

... thus disannulling the covenant...

That's Replacement Theology, and it has no place in the Messianic JUDAISM DIR. Go spew that in the Xian DIR, and read the rules of the forum.

 

[wizanda]

That's Replacement Theology, and it has no place in the Messianic JUDAISM DIR. Go spew that in the Xian DIR, and read the rules of the forum.

Who said anything about replacement theology; that is the prophecy that came to pass within a Messianic Jewish context... Christians don't get anything.

And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

The Ebionites (poor ones) of the past, realized this is what had been fulfilled; it is the most logical reason for the second temple destruction, as prophesied by Zechariah.

I've got a totally different understanding on how Messianic prophecy fits together; will discuss it in detail if you're interested.... Yet try not to assume Christian ideology on me ; as it is clear if you've seen my posts, I've dismantled all of their texts... John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros).

 

[BilliardsBall]

Might I ask how that works in your explanation? For obvious reasons, I'm always a bit cautious of comparing Yeshua to sacrifices since it can be easily construed as a human sacrifice. I view him as a suffering Tzaddik who bore the sins of others.

If we are loathe to compare Y'shua to sacrifices we have to ask 1) why there were sacrifices instituted between Adam and Y'shua and 2) whether or not we want to include the books of Hebrews and Romans in our canon.

 

[Sariel]

Besides the obvious objection that human sacrifice is considered an abomination, valid sacrifices have to be offered in the temple by a priest with the sacrifice suffering no excess pain. Therefore we must conclude something else is being referenced.
In Jewish mysticism and kabbala, a Tzadik (righteous one) may suffer the sins of others upon himself to atone for them in their place. An interesting excerpt from the book Derech haShem (The Way of God):
["... suffering and pain may be imposed on a tzaddik as an atonement for his entire generation. This tzaddik must then accept this suffering with love for the benefit of his generation, just as he accepts the suffering imposed upon him for his own sake. In doing so, he benefits his generation by atoning for it, and at the same time is himself elevated to a very great degree ... In addition, there is a special, higher type of suffering that comes to a tzaddik who is even greater and more highly perfected than the ones discussed above. This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole."]
The function of a Tzadik in Kabbalistic thought fits very well to what is written of Yeshua. Tzadik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kenny]

Besides the obvious objection that human sacrifice is considered an abomination, valid sacrifices have to be offered in the temple by a priest with the sacrifice suffering no excess pain. Therefore we must conclude something else is being referenced.
In Jewish mysticism and kabbala, a Tzadik (righteous one) may suffer the sins of others upon himself to atone for them in their place. An interesting excerpt from the book Derech haShem (The Way of God):
["... suffering and pain may be imposed on a tzaddik as an atonement for his entire generation. This tzaddik must then accept this suffering with love for the benefit of his generation, just as he accepts the suffering imposed upon him for his own sake. In doing so, he benefits his generation by atoning for it, and at the same time is himself elevated to a very great degree ... In addition, there is a special, higher type of suffering that comes to a tzaddik who is even greater and more highly perfected than the ones discussed above. This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole."]
The function of a Tzadik in Kabbalistic thought fits very well to what is written of Yeshua. Tzadik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is quite interesting.

It sounds like the medicine as depicted in the Targum Pseudo-Jonathon.

[JERUSALEM. And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the law, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy head to kill thee; and when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the law, and perform not (its) instructions, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha.]

 

[Zardoz]

Who said anything about replacement theology; that is the prophecy that came to pass within a Messianic Jewish context... Christians don't get anything. ...

If you don't wish to be mistaken for a duck, then don't quack like a duck.

The phrase "disannulling the covenant" is pure Xian replacement theology terminology, sorry.

Yeshua made it very clear in the Sermon on the Mount that the covenant cannot be broken, not one punctuation mark can be removed.

The covenant has exile as part of it; the covenant was intact during the Babylonian Exile and it is still intact during the present Galut Edom exile.

Our role as Messiah ben Yosef, the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, reflects and echo's Yeshuah's ... how could it be any different?

That Edom declares we are disenfranchised is in the prophet's words:

"...yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted"

 

[Zardoz]

...whether or not we want to include the books of Hebrews and Romans in our canon.

Nothing of Paul of Tarsus, the Roman, is canon to me.

 

[wizanda]

If you don't wish to be mistaken for a duck, then don't quack like a duck.

Unfortunately, someone has already muddled it all together, before i came along to unravel it.

The phrase "disannulling the covenant" is pure Xian replacement theology terminology, sorry.

It is alright, it is clear Christians are the ones quick to the spoils, and don't even notice they've been caught red handed (blood), stealing what isn't theirs and swearing falsely to achieve it.

Yeshua made it very clear in the Sermon on the Mount that the covenant cannot be broken, not one punctuation mark can be removed.

Assume you're meaning 'not one jot or tittle shall be removed from the law, until all things are fulfilled'? That is correct, as by the law we can stipulate where Christianity is in error.

Yet the covenant with Israel or divorce decree is referenced by Yeshua... So in the parable of the wicked husbandmen, Yeshua clearly states that it will be given to another group of people. Within the parable of the wedding feast, the original guest refuse to attend; so others are invited. When Yeshua says about the right arm and right eye being removed, straight after he says, 'if you are to divorce your wife, give her a bill of divorce', i.e. Zechariah 11 is the divorce decree.

Our role as Messiah ben Yosef, the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, reflects and echo's Yeshuah's ... how could it be any different?

Yeshua does fulfill Isaiah 53, yet you realize it interlinks with Isaiah 28.... That the 'rumor' that is revealed, links to the bed of adultery Isaiah 28:9-19... Rumor to rumor, with the chief corner stone that Yeshua stated at the end of the parable of the wicked husbandmen in the middle of it.

So to clarify, the ones chosen to reign in the messianic age (Israel = reign with God), are selected by Yeshua because of following his words and teachings.
Thus Christianity doesn't get anything, Jews are no longer automatically a chosen people, Muslims are just claiming inheritance and don't even realize it was disannulled. So instead it is out of the tribes of the world they're chosen, based upon righteousness. Yeshua came to shorten the days of ungodliness by laying a snare, plummet line and firm foundations; most miss it as they've got private interests to serve.

 

[Kenny]

It is alright, it is clear Christians are the ones quick to the spoils, and don't even notice they've been caught red handed (blood), stealing what isn't theirs and swearing falsely to achieve it.

Yes... let's get our swords and kill them all!

 

[wizanda]

Yes... let's get our swords and kill them all!

'He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword'... The statement is purely based on prophetic text Zechariah 5, Habakkuk 2 and Revelations beast is referring to Christianity; so let God decide.

 

[Kenny]

'He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword'... The statement is purely based on prophetic text Zechariah 5, Habakkuk 2 and Revelations beast is referring to Christianity; so let God decide.

LOL... Christianity, Catholics or maybe even Islam are all possibilities or maybe none of the above? And lets differentiate Religiousness vs. true faith. Every faith has a calf worship opportunity lest we lump everyone together.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Unfortunately, someone has already muddled it all together, before i came along to unravel it.

It is alright, it is clear Christians are the ones quick to the spoils, and don't even notice they've been caught red handed (blood), stealing what isn't theirs and swearing falsely to achieve it.

Assume you're meaning 'not one jot or tittle shall be removed from the law, until all things are fulfilled'? That is correct, as by the law we can stipulate where Christianity is in error.

Yet the covenant with Israel or divorce decree is referenced by Yeshua... So in the parable of the wicked husbandmen, Yeshua clearly states that it will be given to another group of people. Within the parable of the wedding feast, the original guest refuse to attend; so others are invited. When Yeshua says about the right arm and right eye being removed, straight after he says, 'if you are to divorce your wife, give her a bill of divorce', i.e. Zechariah 11 is the divorce decree.

Yeshua does fulfill Isaiah 53, yet you realize it interlinks with Isaiah 28.... That the 'rumor' that is revealed, links to the bed of adultery Isaiah 28:9-19... Rumor to rumor, with the chief corner stone that Yeshua stated at the end of the parable of the wicked husbandmen in the middle of it.

So to clarify, the ones chosen to reign in the messianic age (Israel = reign with God), are selected by Yeshua because of following his words and teachings.
Thus Christianity doesn't get anything, Jews are no longer automatically a chosen people, Muslims are just claiming inheritance and don't even realize it was disannulled. So instead it is out of the tribes of the world they're chosen, based upon righteousness. Yeshua came to shorten the days of ungodliness by laying a snare, plummet line and firm foundations; most miss it as they've got private interests to serve.

One of the issues here is God did not divorce Israel, He is still married to her (Hosea) and hates divorce (Malachi) and does whatever he pleases (Psalms). It would displease Him to divorce Israel just as it would displease Jesus to not be wed to the bride He is engaged to, the saints.

 

[Kenny]

His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will never cease. Not to forget that because of that covenant all nations, including the Goyim, are blessed and partake of The Blessing!

 

[wizanda]

His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will never cease. Not to forget that because of that covenant all nations, including the Goyim, are blessed and partake of The Blessing!

Then I took the staff that I had named "grace" and broke it, showing I was breaking my covenant that I had made with all of the people (All Nations).

This is why Paul and John are so in error, as they're trying to graft people onto a broken covenant.

One of the issues here is God did not divorce Israel

I saw that even though I had sent unfaithful Israel away for all her adulteries and had given her a divorce decree, her treacherous sister Judah didn't fear, and she, too, committed adultery.

So clearly God stated he would divorce them, and Yeshua then gave them the certificate of divorce, which they signed by their own declaration (30 pieces of silver); the divorce has been served.

He is still married to her (Hosea)

God took them back after the Exile.

and hates divorce (Malachi)

Yet not if it is for a reason...So Yeshua came as the bridegroom to Israel; they put him to death, case closed. That really doesn't make for a happy marriage; if your betrothed puts you to death, before the wedding day.

Jesus to not be wed to the bride He is engaged to.

I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.

So Yeshua marries the new kingdom, not the old full of iniquity.... This is why when satan offered him to rule over this world, he declined it.