Yin-Zen Revisited

[Straw Dog]

Greetings zenarchs,

I'm here seeking advice and guidance from the more experienced meditators. I was practicing yin-zen, and related techniques, for a number of months. I didn't stop because it was ineffective. On the contrary, I stopped because it was too effective.

My energy levels and degree of focus greatly increased. It was much easier to control my desires and actions with willpower. I simply did that which was necessary without much anxiety. It also seemed to produce a kind of natural high. It was like it was too good to be true and so I began to suspect that it was, in fact, too good to be true. How could such simple techniques have such profound effects within such a short period of time?

I couldn't shake the suspicion that I had fallen for some kind of self-deception. Yet, at the same time, nothing in particular seemed to be amiss. Everything was great, but with my need to find flaws, I just stopped. Within the following weeks, my ego became louder once more and self-regulation lapsed as well.

So is anyone familiar with yin-zen or any other experimental meditative practices without a strong traditional support? Do certain exercises cause such a pleasant distortion in the mind that it just feels like progress? Are such practices ineffective in the long run? Is yin-zen compatible with genuine Buddhism? How can the apparent external benefits be explained if the practice is fundamentally flawed?

Any help towards understanding this mystery would be greatly appreciated.

 

[DreadFish]

Im not familiar with Yin-Zen, but I remember you mentioning it before. Could you explain it a bit more?

 

[crossfire]

Perhaps you might be on the verge of uncovering something in your subconscious mind that you subconsciously would rather remain buried? You've certainly uncovered your capacity for doubt.

When I was using a similar sounding technique to observe/investigate PMS, I had a similar difficulty. I just kept up with it.

 

[Straw Dog]

Im not familiar with Yin-Zen, but I remember you mentioning it before. Could you explain it a bit more?

Sure. It's somewhat tricky to explain, but simple and natural to practice. Instead of chasing after the breath with your awareness, you recollect the antecedent of the in-and-out cycle. Begin by being the breath-maker rather than the breath-watcher. Be mindful of the potential activating throughout the body to breath and maintain this awareness of willpower during each in-and-out breath. This helps the mind identify with its original luminous nature rather than with any transitory phenomenalizations, such as the breath or the body.

It seems to make more sense than chasing after the breath since it tunes the mind to the transcendental rather than the transitory. It also doesn't require the low-level torture of ghost-sitting.

 

[Straw Dog]

Perhaps you might be on the verge of uncovering something in your subconscious mind that you subconsciously would rather remain buried? You've certainly uncovered your capacity for doubt.

When I was using a similar sounding technique to observe/investigate PMS, I had a similar difficulty. I just kept up with it.

I think you may be correct. I was uncovering too much of the subconscious too quickly. Perhaps I wasn't prepared for it, which is where practicing the rest of Buddha-dharma comes into play.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Sure. It's somewhat tricky to explain, but simple and natural to practice. Instead of chasing after the breath with your awareness, you recollect the antecedent of the in-and-out cycle. Begin by being the breath-maker rather than the breath-watcher. Be mindful of the potential activating throughout the body to breath and maintain this awareness of willpower during each in-and-out breath. This helps the mind identify with its original luminous nature rather than with any transitory phenomenalizations, such as the breath or the body.

It seems to make more sense than chasing after the breath since it tunes the mind to the transcendental rather than the transitory. It also doesn't require the low-level torture of ghost-sitting.

I could be wrong, but this sounds quite like pranayama.

 

[Straw Dog]

I could be wrong, but this sounds quite like pranayama.

It does seem similar, especially in terms of the effects and benefits, but yin-zen isn't fixated on controlling the breath. Perhaps you could explain your understanding of pranayama as I've never practiced it.

 

[Straw Dog]

I don't know. I think I'm just always between the mystical and the rational. Perhaps they work best in a system of checks and balances.

 

[Straw Dog]

Well, here's one possible rational explanation to some of my questions:

The benefits didn't arise directly from the technique itself, but rather from the associations attributed to it. In the manner that a Christian may feel born again, committing to a practice (any practice) infuses life with more meaning and vitality. I was able to act with more purpose because I was committed to a steady conceptual framework with associated mystical experiences. It can make you feel blissed-out and is similar to a drug in that respect. I want to believe in Buddha-mind and so, naturally, all mystical experience would be interpreted as such.

Thoughts?

 

[DreadFish]

Sure. It's somewhat tricky to explain, but simple and natural to practice. Instead of chasing after the breath with your awareness, you recollect the antecedent of the in-and-out cycle. Begin by being the breath-maker rather than the breath-watcher. Be mindful of the potential activating throughout the body to breath and maintain this awareness of willpower during each in-and-out breath. This helps the mind identify with its original luminous nature rather than with any transitory phenomenalizations, such as the breath or the body.

It seems to make more sense than chasing after the breath since it tunes the mind to the transcendental rather than the transitory. It also doesn't require the low-level torture of ghost-sitting.

Did you happen to get this practice from Dark Zen? It sounds like something that website talks about (not that that site is very concise about anything).

It sounds to me like you are simply doubting, afraid to fall to any delusions. Not necessarily a bad thing, healthy skepticism is good and I think its good to be careful when it comes to stuff like this. It doesn't sound like anything is amiss to me.

I can't comment on anything in your subconscious since I dont know you, but you're smart, I think you can work this out.

 

[DreadFish]

Well, here's one possible rational explanation to some of my questions:

The benefits didn't arise directly from the technique itself, but rather from the associations attributed to it. In the manner that a Christian may feel born again, committing to a practice (any practice) infuses life with more meaning and vitality. I was able to act with more purpose because I was committed to a steady conceptual framework with associated mystical experiences. It can make you feel blissed-out and is similar to a drug in that respect. I want to believe in Buddha-mind and so, naturally, all mystical experience would be interpreted as such.

Thoughts?

Did you not have a steady conceptual framework prior to taking up this specific practice?

 

[Straw Dog]

Did you happen to get this practice from Dark Zen? It sounds like something that website talks about (not that that site is very concise about anything).

Yeah, it's just a bunch of ******** haha. Mystery solved.

 

[Straw Dog]

Did you not have a steady conceptual framework prior to taking up this specific practice?

Philosophy works well. Mysticism just leads to madness, though. I'm done with it.

 

[DreadFish]

Though I think there is something to the practice of paying attention to the will of an action. The idea of gaining powers from pranayama is rooted in the fact that it is intentional control of the breath. I think the same kind of thing goes with qi gong and related chi exercises.

Anyway, however irrelevant it may be, this idea reminded me of a quote earlier from the alleged don Juan of Castaneda fame:

Impeccability begins with a single act that has to be
deliberate, precise and sustained. If that act is repeated long
enough, one acquires a sense of unbending intent which can be
applied to anything else. If that is accomplished the road is
clear. One thing will lead to another until the warrior realizes
his full potential.

So, there could be something to the practice. Im pretty sure that everything on that Dark Zen site is just stolen from other ideas and dressed up differently to make it appear original anyway, so there could be a hint of something legit in it.

 

[crossfire]

Philosophy works well. Mysticism just leads to madness, though. I'm done with it.

Hence, the need for upekkha/equanimity. You never know what mindfulness might uncover. The need for the four sublime states is one reason why I like Buddhism so much.

 

[Straw Dog]

So, there could be something to the practice. Im pretty sure that everything on that Dark Zen site is just stolen from other ideas and dressed up differently to make it appear original anyway, so there could be a hint of something legit in it.

Yeah, I've researched it more thoroughly. There are gems among the dung. I think the criticism against conventional Zen is somewhat insightful actually. The authors probably really do believe in their cause and practice. Like I said, mysticism can be kind of like a drug. I think I had to get completely off drugs to fully realize this haha.

Unfortunately, I believe anyone claiming to be more enlightened to be under a form of self-deception called egojitsu. They feel good about themselves and empowered through a misplaced sense of self-righteousness.

The majority of stability in my life has come from living philosophically and meditatively rather than mystically.

 

[DreadFish]

Yeah, I've researched it more thoroughly. There are gems among the dung. I think the criticism against conventional Zen is somewhat insightful actually. The authors probably really do believe in their cause and practice. Like I said, mysticism can be kind of like a drug. I think I had to get completely off drugs to fully realize this haha.

Unfortunately, I believe anyone claiming to be more enlightened to be under a form of self-deception called egojitsu. They feel good about themselves and empowered through a misplaced sense of self-righteousness.

The majority of stability in my life has come from living philosophically and meditatively rather than mystically.

Im interested in what your definition of mysticism is that you do not want to live that way.

 

[Straw Dog]

Hence, the need for upekkha/equanimity. You never know what mindfulness might uncover. The need for the four sublime states is one reason why I like Buddhism so much.

Yes, I do still feel that original Chan Buddhism is probably one of the most comprehensive philosophies (art of thinking/way of life). Although, I do find a great deal of error in the mainstream popular understanding of Zen. I believe Dogen was wrong about a lot of things.

 

[Straw Dog]

Im interested in what your definition of mysticism is that you do not want to live that way.

More or less, mysticism is the pursuit of communion or identification with an ultimate reality or divine nature through direct experience or intuition. All too often, this perception of ultimate reality is really just an extension of our subconscious drives for preservation and peace. Mystics seek union with particular conceptions of their own creation rather than with reality directly. The mystic is in the same boat as the fundamentalist, although their leap of faith is more subtle and flexible.

 

[DreadFish]

More or less, mysticism is the pursuit of communion or identification with an ultimate reality or divine nature through direct experience or intuition. All too often, this perception of ultimate reality is really just an extension of our subconscious drives for preservation and peace. Mystics seek union with particular conceptions of their own creation rather than with reality directly. The mystic is in the same boat as the fundamentalist, although their leap of faith is more subtle and flexible.

I would disagree with equating the mystic experience with the illusions projected by the mind. While, in having various mystic experiences we, because of our plentifully conditioned minds, place overlays on the experience, the mystic experience is not exclusively conditioned.

All too often, this perception of ultimate reality is really just an extension of our subconscious drives for preservation and peace.

Then it is still just a perception of ultimate reality and something to be let go of. I guess I would think of that as part of the mystic's path. There is a lot of delusion to work through and plenty of pitfalls to avoid. That doesn't mean that the mystic is inherently a delusional person. That delusion exists in all paths in different forms. Sticking to philosophy and lifestyle practice has room for pitfalls as well.

Mystics seek union with particular conceptions of their own creation rather than with reality directly.

This sort of contradicts your own explanation of mysticism. If one is intentionally seeking union with a particular concept of the own creation, then they are not seeking union with ultimate reality. If one is accidentally identifying reality with their concept, they have fallen into one of the aforementioned pitfalls and are still working on the path.